Mark Mazzetti

  • Aired:  04/18/13
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"The Way of the Knife" author Mark Mazzetti didn't need enhanced interrogation techniques to get information about the CIA's secret army. (5:54)

( CHEERS AND APPLAUSE )

>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.

MY GUEST TONIGHT A PULITZER

PRIZE-WINNING CORRESPONDENT FOR

THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED "THE WAY

OF THE KNIFE: THE CIA, A SECRET

ARMY, AND A WAR AT THE ENDS OF

THE EARTH."

PLEASE WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM,

MARK MAZZETTI MAZZETTI.

HOW ARE YOU.

NICE TO SEE YOU THP THIS IS "THE

WAY OF THE KNIFE" THE C.I.A. AND

SECRET ARMY" WHICH I'M GUESSING

IS REALLY NOT SO SECRET ANYMORE.

>> NOT SO MUCH.

>> Jon: HOW DID YOU GET

ACCESS TO THIS INFORMATION?

>> IT WAS HARD.

THERE WERE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO

DON'T WANT TO TALK.

AND THERE WERE SOURCES THAT I

HAD SPENT A LOT OF TIME WORKING

WITH OVER THE YEARS.

WHO AGREED TO TALK FOR THE BOOK.

>> Jon: DID YOU USE

ENHANCED INTERROGATION

TECHNIQUES?

>> I DIDN'T NEED TO

( LAUGHTER ).

>> Jon: THEY GAVE UP

INFORMATION JUST THROUGH

QUESTIONING?

>> YES.

>> Jon: INTERESTING.

>> YES.

( LAUGHTER ).

>> Jon: YOU HAVE A HAVE

INTERESTING STORY AT THE VERY

BEGINNING OF THE BOOK ABOUT

SOMEBODY WHO GOT IN SOME TROUBLE

OVER IN-- OVERSEAS AND WAS

REFERRED TO BY THE UNITED STATES

GOVERNMENT AS A DIPLOMAT.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Jon: TURNS OUT HE'S NOT

A COME.

T.KIMLOMA

>> HE WORKED FOR THE OF C.I.A.

HE WAS A CONTRACTOR WORKING FOR

THE C.I.A., AND IN JANUARY 2011,

HE SHOT TWO PEOPLE IN PAKISTAN

ON THE STREET WHO WERE TRYING TO

ROB HIM.

AND WHAT HAPPENED AFTER THAT --

>> THE ONLY THING THAT STOPS A

BAD GUY IN PAKISTAN IS A GOOD

GUY IN PAKISTAN.

>> GUN CONTROL.

>> Jon: THERE YOU GO.

( LAUGHTER ).

>> HE ENDS UP IN JAIL.

AND WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT IS

WEEKS OF DELIBERATION BETWEEN--

INSIDE THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION

ABOUT WHETHER TO OWN UP TO THE

FACT THAT HE WORKED FOR THE

C.I.A. OR CONTINUE CALLING HIM A

DIPLOMAT AND STONEWALL THE

PAKISTANI GOVERNMENT.

IN THE END, THEY DID SAY HE WAS

WORKING FOR THE C.I.A.

THERE WAS A SECRET DEAL THAT WAS

BROKERED, AND THEY GOT HIM OUT

OF THE COUNTRY IN A HURRY AFTER

ABOUT $2 MILLION WAS PAID TO THE

FAMILIES OF THE VICTIMS.

>> Jon: OH, THAT'S

INTERESTING.

SO A LITTLE BIT OF MONEY THAT

WENT THROUGH THERE.

HOW DID THE C.I.A. GAIN THIS

SORT OF INDIVIDUALIZED AUTHORITY

THAT EVEN THE DEPARTMENT OF

DEFENSE DOESN'T HAVE?

AND HOW DID WE CREATE THESE SORT

OF TWO SEPARATE SYSTEMS FOR THIS

KIND OF OVERSEAS TERROR

FIGHTING?

>> WELL, IT'S-- ONE OF THE

THINGS THEY SORT OF TALKED ABOUT

IN THE BOOK IS HOW BASICALLY THE

C.I.A. STARTED TO LOOK A WHOLE

LOT LIKE THE MILITARY AND THE

MILITARY IS LOOKING A LOT LIKE

THE C.I.A.

BASICALLY AFTER 9/11, PRESIDENT

BUSH GAVE THE C.I.A. LETHAL

AUTHORITY AND WIDE AUTHORITY TO

GO CAPTURE AND KILL PEOPLE ALL

AROUND THE GLOBE.

THIS SETS THEM OFF ON THE

BEGINNING OF SOME OF THESE

SECRET WARS, AND IT'S-- IT

STARTS OUT WITH A LOT OF

DETENTIONS AND INTERROGATIONS,

AND STARTING AROUND 2004, 2005,

THERE'S A WHOLE LOT MORE DRONE

STRIKES, TARGETED KILLINGS.

>> Jon: BECAUSE THEY FOUND

OUT ABOUT THE INTERROGATIONS AND

SAID WE SHOULD DO THAT.

>> WELL, THERE WAS A LOT OF

INTERNAL DEBATE INSIDE THE BUSH

ADMINISTRATION.

THERE WAS AN INTERNAL C.I.A.

REPORT THAT CHRONICLED SOME OF

THE ABUSES IN THE C.I.A.

PRISONS.

AND, OBVIOUSLY, A LOT OF

CONGRESSIONAL SCRUTINY OF THE

PROGRAM.

AND SO AS THAT HAPPENS, THERE

WAS A NEW STRATEGY STARTED TO

EVOLVE WHERE BOTH REPUBLICANS

AND DEMOCRATS HAD BEEN CHEERING

SOME OF THE TARGETED KILLING AND

DRONE STRIKES.

IT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS MORE

POLITICALLY PALATABLE IN A WAY.

>> Jon: AND IT WAS SECRET,

YET, SOMEHOW IN THE GIFT SHOP OF

THE C.I.A., THIS IS A SECRET

PROGRAM, WHAT WERE THEY SELLING?

>> THEY WERE SELLING GOLF SHIRT

WITH PREDATORS ON THEM.

>> Jon: PREDATOR DRONES.

>> YES.

>> Jon: EVEN THOUGH THAT

WAS A SECRET PROGRAM NO ONE WAS

SUPPOSED TO KNOW ABOUT.

>> WELL, IT'S A SECRET GIFT

SHOP.

( LAUGHTER ).

THEY DON'T JUST LET ANYONE IN

BUT THEY STILL-- YEAH.

>> Jon: I DID NOT REALIZE

THE GIFT SHOP ITSELF WAS SECRET.

>> YES.

>> Jon: WHERE DID YOU GO

THAT?

I CANNOT TELL YOU.

HOW-- HAVE THESE ALL DEVELOPED

WITH ANY OVERSIGHT?

AND IS THERE ANY CONVERSATION

BETWEEN THE D.O.D. AND C.I.A.?

YOU WRITE THAT THEY HAVE

SEPARATE KILL LISTS.

>> SO IF YOU LOOK AT YEMEN RIGHT

NOW, YOU HAVE BOTH THE PENTAGON

AND THE C.I.A. ARE RUNNING

PARALLEL DRONE WARS WITH

SEPARATE KILL LISTS, AND UNDER

DIFFERENT AUTHORITIES.

SO FOR THE-- AND THIS, ALSO,

THEY ANSWERED TO DIFFERENT PARTS

OF CONGRESS WHO, YOU KNOW, ARE

TRYING TO DO THE OVERSIGHT.

SO AN OUTSIDER AS A REPORTER

TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT IS THE

DIFFERENCE, WHY ARE THERE THESE

PARALLEL PROGRAMS IS QUITE

DIFFICULT?

>> Jon: IS IT LIKE

GLENGARRY GLENN ROSS, WHERE

THEY'RE LIKE, YOU HAVE TO KILL

MORE PEOPLE.

THE GUY WHO COMES IN SECOND GETS

STEAK KNIVES, THIRD IS FIRED.

ARE THEY COMPETING WITH EACH

OTHER?

THERE'S AN ACKNOWLEDGMENT RIGHT

NOW I THINK IN THE OBAMA

ADMINISTRATION THAT THE SYSTEM

IS WAY TOO HAPHAZARD.

AND WHAT HAS EVOLVED OVER THE

LAST 11-PLUS YEARS HAS EVOLVED

ON THE FLY, AND THEY'RE TRYING

TO WORK UP ON THE SOME SORT OF,

SORT OF RULES, TO SORT OF

DETERMINE FOR THE FUTURE, AND AS

PRESIDENT OBAMA SAID ON THIS

SHOW, WE NEED RULES TO RESTRAIN

ME, AND RESTRAIN FUTURE

PRESIDENTS FROM BEING SORT OF

SEDUCED BY SECRET WAR.

>> Jon: YEAH, THAT WAS A

SURPRISING THING WHEN HE SAID

THAT.

STICK AROUND FOR A LITTLE BIT

AND WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHAT

HAPPENS WITH THE C.I.A.

PROGRAMS.

"THE WAY OF THE KNIFE."

IT'S ON THE BOOK SHELVES RIGHT

NOW.

MARK MAZZETTI, EVERYBO

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