Richard Brookhiser

  • Aired:  10/20/11
  •  | Views: 12,594

Historian and author Richard Brookhiser talks about James Madison's invention of the first national political party in 1792. (6:25)

>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.

MY GUEST TONIGHT, A SENIOR

EDITOR FOR NATIONAL REVOW,

HE'S ALSO A HISTORIAN AND

AUTHOR.

HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED JAMES

MADISON, PLEASE WELCOME TO

THE PROGRAM RICHARD

BROOKHISER, SIR.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'M GOOD.

FIRST OF ALL, THE BOOK IS

CALLED JAMES MADISON.

THANK YOU FOR WRITING A BOOK

AND SHOWING ONCE AGAIN THAT

THE ALTITUDE NALLY

CHALLENGED AMONG US CAN

STILL BE SUCCESS.

JAMES MADISON, PEOPLE DON'T

ROLIZE THIS, 8 INCHES TALL.

>> 5, 6.

>> Jon: WAS HE 5, 6.

THAT IS EVEN MORE GENEROUS.

I THOUGHT HE WAS 5,.

>> THEY TELL ME IN

MONTPELIER WHICH IS HIS HOME

WHICH IS NOW A NATIONAL SITE,

THAT HE WAS 5, 6.

I JUST HAD AN E-MAIL

EXCHANGE ON THIS YESTERDAY.

>> Jon: IS THAT TRUE.

>> YEAH.

>> Jon: YOU KNOW WHAT I LOVE

ABOUT THAT, SHORT PEOPLE CAN

NEVER GIVE IT UP.

EVEN IN DEATH, THEY ARE

STILL LIKE I'M SURE MADISON

IS IN HIS GRAVE LIKE 5, 6.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, HE COMES

AFTER THOMAS JEFFERSON WHO

WAS OVER 6 FEET.

>> Jon: ALL THOSE GUY,

WASHINGTON WAS A BIG DUDE.

ALL THESE GUYS.

MADISON IS SUCH AN

INTERESTING FIGURE BECAUSE

IN MY MIND I ALWAYS

ASSOCIATE HIM WITH THE

FEDERALIST PAPERS AND

WITH --

>> ONE OF THE CO-AUTHORS.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

AND WITH CREATING ALMOST THE

SENSE AND THEORY OF OUR

CENTRAL GOVERNMENT BUT ONCE

HAMILTON GOT HIS FINGERS IN

THERE, MADISON REALLY BACKED

AWAY FROM THAT.

>> HE BACKED AWAY.

HAMILTON HAS AN ECONOMIC

PLAN WHICH APPARENTLY THEY

DIDN'T DISCUSS WHEN WHEN

THEY WERE DOING THE

FEDERALIST PAPERS AND ONCE

HAMILTON STARTS PRESIDENTING

THAT INTO WORK, MADISON

DOESN'T LIKE IT.

>> Jon: THIS IS THE CENTRAL

BANK.

>> THE CENTRAL BANK,

HAMILTON WAS A MERCHANT'S

CLERK IN THE WEST ENDIES.

MADISON IS A VIRGINIA

PLANTER.

SO THEY COME FROM TWO

DIFFERENT WORLDS AND THEY

SEE IT IN TWO DIFFERENT

DIRECTIONS.

AND MADISON IS JUST VERY

SUSPICIOUS.

AND HE DOESN'T LIKE IT.

SO BUT WHAT INTERESTED ME IN

THIS BOOK IS WHAT MADISON

THEN DID ABOUT IT ONCE HE

SEES HAMILTON GOING OFF IN

WHAT HE THINKS IS THE WRONG

DIRECTION.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

AND HE THINKS THIS IS

UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

MADISON FEELS THIS REALLY IS

SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE NOT

ALLOWED TO DO.

>> YES, THIS IS NOT AN

ENUMERATED POWER.

HAMILTON SAYS WELL, A IT

ALLOWS THE UNITED STATES TO

RAISE LOANS ON THE CREDIT OF

THE UNITED STATES WHICH IS

AN I ENUMERATE POD WE ARE.

>> Jon: REMEMBER WHEN WE HAD

GOOD CREDIT?

THOSE WERE THE DAYS.

>> WE COULD USE SOME OF THAT

AGAIN.

BUT SO WHAT MADISON DOES IS

HE INVENTS THE FIRST

NATIONAL POLITICAL PARTY TO

OPPOSE HAMILTON.

AND HE-- THE FIRST STEP HE

TAKES, HE AND HIS BEST

FRIEND THOMAS JEFFERSON, HIS

EIGHT YEARS OLDER BEST, BEST

FRIEND, THEY TAKE A VACATION

IN THE SUMMER OF 171.

THEY LEAVE PHILADELPHIA, THE

CAPITAL TO GO TO NEW YORK

CITY, AND THEY GO UP THE

HUDSON TO LAKE GEORGE AND

LAKE CHAMPLAIN, AND THEIR

THEY'RE CANOEING, FISHING,

AND THEN THEY COME BACK TO

NEW ENGLAND, TO NEW YORK,

AND THEY GO BACK.

BUT THERE'S A LAWYER IN NEW

YORK CITY WHO'S A GOOD

FRIEND OF HAMILTONS AND HE

WRITES HIM A LETTER IN

PHILADELPHIA AND SAYS

THERE'S A PASSIONATE

COURTSHIP BETWEEN THESE TWO

MEN.

AND ENEMIES OF YOURS IN NEW

YORK STATE.

SO THEY'RE COLLECTING

POLITICAL ALLIES.

IN ANOTHER STATE.

>> Jon: THAT IS THE BEST

ROAD TRIP MOVIE I COULD EVER

IMAGINE.

I IMAGINE THEM IN LIKE A

CONVERTIBLE AND THEN YOU

HERE LIKE, I FEEL GOOD,nd

THEN THEY'RE LIKE DRIVING.

HOW DO THEY-- IS THEIR GOAL

AT THIS POINT TO CREATE THE

TWO PARTY SYSTEM OR IS THEIR

GOAL MERELY TO TAKE SOME OF

THE WIND OUT OF THE, I GUESS

WHAT YOU WOULD CALL THEM NOW

THE FEDERALLISTS' SAIL

SAILS.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THEY SORT

OF EDGE INTO THIS, BECAUSE

WHEN THE FOUNDERS PUT THE

CONSTITUTION INTO OPERATION,

THEY DON'T THINK OF PARTIES.

AND IT'S ALMOST AS IF THEY

THINK THERE WON'T BE ANY

PARTIES.

SO THEY'RE KIND OF SIDE

ELLING INTO IT.

BUT MADISON IS ONE OF THE

FIRST TO BREAK OUT OF THAT

CA COCOON.

AND HE IS THE ONE THAT

COUNTRIES ENS THIS NEW

PARTY.

HE CALLS IT THE REPUBLICAN

PARTY IN 1792.

AND THAT'S THE NAME IT HAS

FOR 0 YEARS.

AND THEN IT BECOMES THE

DEMOCRATIC PARTY WHICH IT

NOW IS.

>> Jon: AND THE FEDERALISTS

THEN BECOME THE WIGS OR

WHOEVER.

>> RIGHT.

THE INTERESTING THING ABOUT

MAD SOP TOO, SO HAMILTON

FORMS THIS BANK AND MADISON

THINKS IT'S UNCONSTITUTIONAL

BUT IT LASTS FOR 20 YEARS.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Jon: AND HE BECOMES

PRESIDENT AND DECIDES, YOU

KNOW WHAT, BECAUSE IT LASTS

20 YEARS, I GUESS IT'S

CONSTITUTIONAL.

>> THAT'S WHAT HE SAYS WHEN

HE'S IN HIS RETIREMENT, YOU

KNOW.

SOMEONE ASKS HEM WHY DID YOU

SUPPORT THE RECHARTER OF THE

FIRST BANK OF THE UNITED

STATES.

AND HE SAYS WELL THE FACT

THAT ITS WITH FOR 20 YEARS

AN UNDER BOTH PARTIES, YOU

KNOW, THE FEDERALISTS WHO

SET IT UP AND THEN WHEN THE

REPUBLICANS CAME IN,%

JEFFERSON, THEN MADISON, AND

NO ONE TRIED TO TEAR IT DOWN

AND THAT SIGNIFIED THE

NATION'S JUDGEMENT OF ITS

CONSTITUTIONALITY.

NOW HE IS SLICING THIS VERY

FINE.

I MEAN HE'S NOT QUITE SAYING

I WAS WRONG IN 1791.

HE'S LEAVING OPEN THE

POSSIBILITY THAT, WELL,

MAYBE, MAYBE I WAS RIGHT BUT

THEN HE'S ALSO ADMITTING

EVERYBODY ELSE MADE A

DIFFERENT DECISION SO NOW

I'M GOING TO LIVE WITH THAT.

>> Jon: IT'S FASCINATING.

YOU YOU READ IT.

I LOVE ABOUT THESE BOOKS, IT

BRINGS TO LIFE THE CHAOTIC.

WE ALL SORT OF SOLIDIFIED

WHAT HAPPENED IN OUR MINDS

BUT IT'S MUCH MORE CAY OT

ECK AND MUCH MORE COMPLEX.

>> CHAOTIC AMBITIOUS.

YOU TALK ABOUT POLITICS NOW,

IF THEY ALL CAME BACK, THEY

WOULD SAY YOU CLEANED IT UP.

>> Jon: YOU GUYS ARE DOING

GREAT.

SO CIVIL.

>> IT'S NOT AS CRAZY, YOU

KNOW, IT'S MORE HONEST.

YOU'VE GOT NONPARTISAN

JOURNALISM.

I MEAN THEY WOULD BE AMAZED.

IF YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE

CRAZINESS AND VICIOUSNESS,

THE 1790s AND EARLY 1800s.

>> Jon: OH, I WANT TO SEE IT.

JAMES MADISON, THE BOOK, A

GREAT READ.

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