>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.
MY GUEST TONIGHT A BEST SELLING
AUTHOR.
HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED THE MORAL
LANDSCAPE HOW SCIENCE CAN
DETERMINE HUMAN VALUES.
PLEASE WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM
SAM HARRIS.
SIR.
[ APPLAUSE ]
HOW ARE YOU?
>> GOOD.
I'M THROEULD BE HERE.
I'M -- THRILLED TO BE HERE.
I'M A HUGE FAN OF THE SHOW.
>> Jon: THANK YOU, SIR.
THE MORAL LANDSCAPE HOW SCIENCE
CAN DETERMINE HUMAN VALUES.
IS THE IDEA -- YOU ARE NOT TALK
TALKING ABOUT GENE THERAPY, YOU
ARE TALKING ABOUT QUANTIFYING
MORAL VALUES SOMEHOW?
>> YES, FIRST LET ME TELL YOU I
THINK THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE
WE'RE FACING IS FINDING SOME WAY
TO CREATE A GLOBAL CIVILIZATION
BASED ON SHARED VALUES.
WE HAVE TO WORK ON THE SAME
GOALS AT SOME POINT.
WE HAVE TO BEGIN GIVING SIMILAR
ANSWERS TO THE MOST IMPORTANT
QUESTIONS IN HUMAN LIFE.
I ONLY WAY FORWARD I SEE TO DO
THAT IS TO BEGIN TO TALK ABOUT
MORALITY AND HUMAN VALUES IN THE
GROWING CONTEXT OF SCIENTIFIC
PART OF THE WORLD.
THE ONLY PEOPLE ON THE PLANET AT
THE MOMENT WHO THINK THERE ARE
TRULY RIGHT ANSWERS ARE
RELIGIOUS DEMAGOGUES WHO THINK
THE UNIVERSE IS 6,000 YEARS OLD.
EVERYONE ELSE THINKS THERE'S
SOMETHING SUSPECT OF THE CONCEPT
OF MORAL TRUTH.
>> Jon: DO THEY THINK IT'S
SUPERINTENDENT OR A COST BENEFIT
ANALYSIS BUT NOT SUSPECT BUT
COMPLEX IN.
>> GRANTED IT'S COMPLEX.
WHAT -- MORALITY AND VALUE
CLEARLY RELATES TO HUMAN AND
ANIMAL WELL BEING.
OUR WELL-BEING EMERGES OUT OF
THE LAWS OF NATURE.
IT DEPENDS ON THE WAY THE
UNIVERSE IS.
HUMAN WELL-BEING RELATES TO
GENETICS AND NEUROBIOLOGY AND
PSYCHOLOGY AND ECONOMICS,
EVERYTHING THAT CAN INFLUENCE
STATES OF HUMAN BEING BUT ALL
FALL WITHIN THE PURVIEW OF
SCIENCE.
THESE ARE NOT -- THERE'S THIS
IDEA THAT YOU HAVE THE IMPORTANT
QUESTIONS IN HUMAN LIFE OVER
HERE THAT ARE -- BASED ON VALUES
THAT COME FROM RELIGION BUT
THERE'S THIS DOMAIN OF FACTS
OVER HERE THAT SCIENCE CAN TREAT
AND THERE'S A GULF BETWEEN THEM.
>> Jon: ARE YOU SAYING THAT
MORALITY CANNOT COME FROM
RELIGION OR THAT IT'S MATH
MATTICLY INFERIOR TO OTHER
MORALITY THAT COMES FROM, LET'S
SAY LONG DIVISION.
[LAUGHTER]
BY THE WAY, I'M NOT SURE I
UNDERSTOOD THAT.
[LAUGHTER]
FEEL FREE TO TURN YOUR HEAD LIKE
A COLLIE LOOKS AT A FAN
QUIZICLY.
[LAUGHTER]
>> I THINK IN THE BEST CASE
RELIGION GIVES PEOPLE BAD
REASONS TO BE GOOD WHERE GOOD
REASONS ARE ACTUALLY AVAILABLE.
IN THE WORST CASE IT SEPARATES
MORAL THINKING FROM THE ACTUAL
DETAILS OF HUMAN AND ANIMAL
SUFFERING.
YOU HAVE AN INSTITUTION LIKE THE
CATHOLIC CHURCH.
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS MORE
CONCERNED ABOUT PREVENTING
CONTRACEPTION THAN PREVENTING
CHILD RAPE.
IT'S MORE CONCERNED ABOUT
PREVENTING GAY MARRIAGE THAN
GENOCIDE.
IT'S NOT MY OPINION OF THE
CATHOLIC IT'S JUST BASED ON ITS
DOCTRINE AND ACTIONS IN THE
WORLD.
>> Jon: THAT IS NOT -- THAT
SAY HUMAN INTERPRETATION OF
SCRIPTURE NOT --
>> SCRIPTURE IS A REAL MIXED
BAG.
IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT
GETTING OUR WISDOM FROM
SCRIPTURE, THE GOD OF ABRAHAM
GETS SLAVERY WRONG.
SLAVERY IS THE EASIEST MORAL
QUESTION WE'VE EVER HAD TO FACE.
IF THIS IS WRITTEN BY A DEITY IT
SHOULD AT LEAST GET THIS
QUESTION RIGHT.
THE GOD OF ABRAHAM CLEARLY
EXPECTS US TO KEEP SLAVES.
THAT'S A PROBLEM.
>> Jon: THAT'S A NONSTARTER
FOR YOU, AS IT WERE.
THE SLAVERY THING.
WHEN HE SAYS WE FEED THE POOR IN
YOUR MIND THE SLAVERY THING
NEGATES --
>> ANYONE IN THIS ROOM COULD
IMPROVE THE TEN COMMANDMENTS IN
FIVE SECONDS.
>> Jon: WOULD YOU MAKE THEM
EASIER TO CARRY AROUND.
>> TRUE.
>> Jon: AN OMNISCIENT GOD
WOULD BE LIKE THIS PHOES KWREZ
IS AN OLD JEW LET'S HELP THIS
GUY OUT.
YOU ARE GIVING HIM ROCKS COMING
DOWN A MOUNTAIN WHO KNOWS WHAT
HE IS GOING TO BREAK.
>> HE BROKE THEM.
>> Jon: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.
HOW DO YOU MATH MATTICLY
QUANTIFY THE TALIBAN.
>> RIGHT.
>> Jon: CAN I OBJECTIVELY LOOK
AT THEIR MORALITY IN TERMS OF
WHAT THEY DO TO WOMEN AND SAY
THAT IS WRONG.
BUT WHERE DO YOU -- HOW DO I
MATH MATTICLY MAKE THAT
STKPHAEUS YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT
QUANTIFYING SOMETHING.
>> THE PROBLEM IS THAT MOST
PEOPLE IN SCIENCE SEEM TO THINK
THERE'S NO PLACE TO STAND WITHIN
SCIENCE TO SAY THAT'S WRONG.
THERE'S INTUITION THAT SOMETHING
HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST 200
YEARS OF INTELLECTUAL PROGRESS
WHICH HAS MADE IT DIFFICULT TO
SAY THAT THE TALIBAN VEALY WRONG
IN THEIR TREATMENT OF WOMEN.
THE MOMENT YOU REALIZE THAT THE
ONLY WAY TO ASK WHETHER IT'S
GOOD FOR WOMEN TO BE FORCED TO
WEAR BURQAS IS TO WONDER WHETHER
IT'S GOOD FOR HUMAN FLOURISHING
ON ANY LEVEL.
DOES IT MAKE MORE COMPASSATE MEN
Z. IT IMPROVE RELATIONSHIPS
BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN.
WE KNOW AT THIS MOMENT IN HUMAN
HISTORY THAT THE ANSWER TO THAT
QUESTION IS NO.
TO DOUBT IT IS TO PRETEND WE
KNOW NOTHING.
>> Jon: ISN'T THE DIFFICULTY
OF THAT DON'T WE SEE THESE
SITUATION AS RAISING IN FAILED
STATES WHERE THE PEOPLE ARE
SUFFERING TERRIBLY TO BEGIN
WITH.
THEY MAKE A FAUST IAN BARGAIN TO
SOME SENSE THEY ARE AGGRESSIVE
BUT THEY ARE BRINGING ORDER TO
US.
FOR THAT ORDER AREN'T THEY
MAKING A COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS
FOR THEMSELVES AS WELL?
>> THERE ARE SITUATIONS WHERE,
YEAH -- WHEN STATES FAIL, THE
FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS IS TO
GET SOME SECURITY.
THERE'S SO MANY WAYS TO DO THAT
ARE OBJECTIVELY TERRIBLE.
TERRIBLE IN THE SENSE THAT
PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING NEEDLESSLY.
WE CAN UNDERSTAND THAT IN THE
LEVEL OF BRAIN AND THE LEVEL OF
SOCIETY.
THIS IS NOT A NO GOOD AREA FOR
SCIENCE.
A SCIENCE OF THE HUMAN MIND WILL
UNDERSTAND HOW HUMAN COMMUNITIES
FLOURISH.
IT'S A MYTH THAT WE CAN'T GET
THROUGH SCIENCE.
>> Jon: IT'S REALLY
INTERESTING.
THE REAL MESSAGE FROM THIS BOOK
IS GET OFF YOUR ASS SCIENTISTS?
WOULD THAT BE A WORKING TITLE
PERHAPS?
>> IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOOD
SUBTITLE, YES.
[LAUGHTER]
>> Jon: "THE MORAL LANDSCAPE"
IT'S A GREAT READ.
A LOT OF INTERESTING QUESTIONS