Exclusive - The Weakest Lincoln

  • Aired:  03/11/14
  •  | Views: 84,867

In this extended clip, Judge Andrew Napolitano and Abraham Lincoln compete in a numbers game about the true cost of the Civil War. (7:31)

>> Jon: WELCOME BACK TO THESHOW.

LISTEN.

SO WE JUST DISCUSSED THE HISTORYOF SLAVERY THERE WITH MY FRIEND

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO AND IMEAN FRIEND.

I DO LOVE THIS MAN.

HE IS A WARM HEARTED AND GOODMAN.

WE HAD A SPIRITED DISCUSSIONBECAUSE THAT'S WHAT EVEN PEOPLE

WHO DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHERSTILL ENJOY BREAKING BREAD EVERY

NOW AND AGAIN.

WE'RE GOING TO DO IT NOW ON AGAME SHOW WE JUST INVENTED

CALLED THE WEAKEST LINCOLN.

[LAUGHTER]YOU'VE MET OUR FIRST CONTESTANT

JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO. WHYDON'T WE MEET HIS OPPONENT

HE IS OBJECTIVELY AMERICA'SGREATEST PRESIDENT.

PLEASE WELCOME ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]ABRAHAM LINCOLN.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]♪

>> WHAT SUP, EVERYBODY.

>> Jon: WHAT SUP.

HONEST DAVE. WE HAVE AN ESTEEMEDPANEL OF JUDGES FROM THE CITY

UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORKDISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR JIM

OAKS.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]FROM UMASS AMHERST MENISHA SINHA

PROFESSOR OF AFROAMERICAN STUDIES AND WHAT IS THE

COLLEGE YOU'RE FROM?

>> COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

>> Jon: DEWIT CLINTON PROFESSOROF HISTORY MR. ERIC FONER.

WE'RE GOING TO GET RIGHT TO OURFIRST QUESTION.

WHY DID ABRAHAM LINCOLN STARTTHE CIVIL WAR?

YES, JUDGE NAPOLITANO?

>> BECAUSE HE WANTED TO PRESERVETHE UNION.

BECAUSE HE NEEDED THE TARIFFSFROM THE SOUTHERN STATES.

BECAUSE HE RESENTED THECHALLENGE TO HIS AUTHORITY.

>> Jon: ABRAHAM LINCOLN, YES.

>> THEY SHOT FIRST AND YOU DON'TMESS WITH LINCOLN.

ALL THE VAMPIRES KNOW WHAT I'MTALKING ABOUT.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> Jon: PANEL?

PROFESSOR OAKS ARE WHY DIDLINCOLN START THE CIVIL WAR?

>> BECAUSE THEY SHOT FIRST ANDYOU DON'T MESS WITH LINCOLN.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> Jon: BUT HE HAD A POINT

ABOUT HE WANTED TO PRESERVE THEUNION?

>> DID HE WANT TO PRESERVE THEUNION AND HE WANTED TO PUT

SLAVERY ON A COURSE OF ULTIMATEEXTINCTION AND THAT WAS NO GOOD

FOR THE SOUTH.

>> Jon: NO GOOD FOR THE SOUTH.

ABOUT THE TARIFF QUESTION.

>> NOBODY WAS THINKING ABOUT THETARIFF AT THAT TIME.

>> Jon: THEY FAILED -->> THEY FAILED TO MENTION IT

WHEN THEY SECEDED.

>> Jon: THEY MENTIONEDSLAVERY.

>> ALL THE TIME.

>> Jon: BUT NOBODY LIKES AGOOD TARIFF.

>> THERE WAS NO TARIFF.

ALMOST NO TARIFF.

>> THERE WAS A 32% TARIFF.

>> NO THERE WASN'T.

>> IT WAS ENACTED IN 1859 ANDSIGNED BY PRESIDENT BUCHANAN.

>> THEY RAISED IT A LITTLE BITIN 1859.

>> IN 1861 THEY RAISED IT AFTERSOUTH CAROLINA SECEDED.

>> Jon: SO I WAS CORRECT INTHE EARLIER DISCUSSION?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]>> Jon: NO POINTS.

HERE WE GO.

WE TOUCHED ON THIS EARLIER, TOO.

INTERESTING QUESTION.

IF LINCOLN WANTED TO PURCHASEAND FREE EVERY SLAVE IN THE

UNITED STATES, HOW MUCH WOULDTHAT HAVE COST?

HOW MUCH?

MR. PRESIDENT LET'S GO WITHLINCOLN.

HOW MUCH WOULD IT HAVE COST?

LINCOLN KNOWS HOW MUCH IT COULDCOST.

>> WELL, IT COULD HAVE COST $3BILLION AND KEEP IN MIND I ONLY

CARRY $5 BILLS.

>> Jon: NO ANSWER.

THERE WERE ABOUT FOURMILLION SLAVES?

JUDGE DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER?

THE NUMBERS ARE NOT EQUIVOCALBECAUSE YOU ARE TRYING TO TALK

ABOUT IT IN MODERN TERMS BUT IN1860 TERMS I'LL AGREE WITH THE

NUMBER, $3 BILLION LESS THANHALF OF WHAT IT COST TO FIGHT

THE CIVIL WAR AND REBUILD THESOUTH.

>> Jon: BUT THEY ARE NOTPROPERTY, THEY ARE PEOPLE.

>> THEY ARE PEOPLE.

[LAUGHTER]>> Jon: PROFESSOR, WHAT IS THE

BILL FOR FREEING EVERYBODY?

>> THE $3 BILLION IS CORRECT.

>> THANK YOU, PROFESSOR.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> IT SHOULD BE NOTED IF YOU

WANTED TO BUY ALL THE FACTORIES,RAILROADS AND BANKS IN THE

COUNTRY AT THAT TIME IT WOULDHAVE COST YOU $2.5 BILLION.

THE SLAVES WERE BY FAR THELARGEST CONCENTRATION OF

PROPERTY IN THE COUNTRY.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE MONEY TOBUY UP $3 BILLION WORTH OF

SLAVES AND MORE TO THE POINT THESOUTH WAS NOT WILLING TO SELL

THE SLAVES.

>> Jon: SO SLAVERY WASECONOMICALLY VIABLE FOR THE

SOUTH AT THAT TIME?

>> SLAVERY WAS NOT ONLYVIABLE; IT WAS GROWING.

THERE WERE MORE SLAVES IN THEUNITED STATES IN 1860 THAN THERE

EVER HAD BEEN BEFORE. THEIDEA IT WAS GOING TO DIE

OUT IS RIDICULOUS. IT WASTHRIVING AND GROWING ANDEXPANDING.

>> WOW.

>> Jon: WHEN HE SAYSRIDICULOUS WHAT HE MEANS IS GOOD

ANSWER.

[ LAUGHTER ]SEE ME AFTER CLASS.

[ LAUGHTER ]QUESTION THREE: IF THE GOAL

WAS TO AVOIDDEVASTATING CONSEQUENCES, HOW

DOES SLAVERY STACK UP TO THECIVIL WAR?

LINCOLN!

>> 500,000 PEOPLE CARRY THE FOURSCORE AND SEVEN -- YOU KNOW WHAT

I'M NOT EXACTLY A NUMBERSPERSON.

>> Jon: I UNDERSTAND.

JUDGE?

>> SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 785,000 AND800,000 HUMAN BEINGS DIED

BECAUSE OF LINCOLN'S WAR.

THAT'S MORE AMERICANS THAN ALLWARS PUT TOGETHER.

>> Jon: AND HOW MANY SLAVES?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TOHOW MANY SLAVES.

THAT WAS NOT IN THE ANSWERS TOTHE QUESTIONS YOU GAVE ME AHEAD

OF TIME.

>> Jon: YOU WERE SUPPOSED TOPRETEND WE WERE ALL SMART,

JUDGE.

YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO TELLTHEM WE HAD THE ANSWERS BEFORE

HAND.

[ LAUGHTER ]JUDGE!

WHAT IS THE HISTORICAL FACT?

>> NEARLY 12 MILLION AFRICANSWERE FORCIBLY REMOVED TO THE

AMERICANS IN THE AFRICAN SLAVETRADE.

BUT THE MOST CONSERVATIVEESTIMATE OF MORTALITY RATE

10-20%, 2-5 MILLIONMAY HAVE PERISHED.

>> YOU ARE TALKING DURING THECIVIL WAR OR THE SLAVE TRADE?

>> Jon: I THINK WE WERE DOINGTHE COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS OF THE

CIVIL WAR VERSUSTHE SLAVE TRADE.

>> THE SLAVE TRADE ENDED IN1808 FORTY YEARS BEFORE THECIVIL WAR.

>> RIGHT BUT IT EXISTED FOR FOURCENTURIES BEFORE THAT.

>> Jon: IT ENDED OFFICIALLYTHEY STILL DID THAT.

IN FACT ENGLAND USED TO PATROLTHE SEAS AND THEY WOULD CAPTURE

200,000, 300,000 SLAVES EVERYYEAR.

PLEASE TELL ME IT'S TRUE.

>> IT IS TRUE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Jon: EVEN THEY HAD BANNED ITPEOPLE WERE USING PEOPLE AS

PROPERTY AND ISN'T THAT WHAT THEWAR WAS ABOUT?

>> THE PRESIDENT USED -- FORGIVEME, ABE.

>> IT'S FINE.

>> THE PRESIDENT USED FEDERALMARSHALS TO CHASE DOWN SLAVES

THAT ESCAPED AND RETURNED THEMTO THE SOUTH DURING THE CIVIL

WAR.

>> THAT'S NOT TRUE.

[ LAUGHTER ][CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

>> Jon: POINT OF ORDER HOW ISTHAT NOT TRUE?

>> BECAUSE IT'S NOT TRUE.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> DO YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT

IS FOR A JUDGE TO BE JUDGED?

[LAUGHTER]>> IF I MAY SAY --

>> Jon: SORRY MR. LINCOLN.

>> THAT ANSWER IS CRAZIER THANMY WIFE, HELLO!

[LAUGHTER]>> Jon: LADIES AND GENTLEMEN,

THAT IS ALL THE TIME WE HAVE FORTHE WEAKEST LINCOLN.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

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