Husain Haqqani

  • Aired:  12/09/13
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"Magnificent Delusions" author Husain Haqqani questions the long-term strategic goals of the United States in Pakistan. (6:53)

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.

MY GUEST TONIGHT WAS PAKISTAN'SAMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES

FROM 2008 TO 2011.

HE IS CURRENTLY A PROFESSOR ATBOSTON UNIVERSITY.

HIS NEW BOOK IS CALLED"MAGNIFICENT DELUSIONS." PLEASE

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAMHUSAIN HAQQANI.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]VERY NICE TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

MAGNIFICENT DELUSIONS, THEPREMISE HERE IS THAT PAKISTANI

AND THE UNITED STATES ARE NOTREALLY ALLIES, THAT WE ARE --

HAVE A VERY UNCOMFORTABLERELATIONSHIP. IS THAT TRUE?

[LAUGHTER]>> LET ME SAY THAT AMERICANS

SOMETIMES MAKE A MISTAKE OFTHINKING THAT THE ONLY THING WE

NEED TO KNOW ABOUT THE REST OFTHE WORLD IS WHO DO WE SHOOT OR

WHO DO WE TAKE OUT FOR LUNCH.

INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS ARESOMETIMES MORE COMPLEX THAN

THAT.

>> Jon: WHAT?

>> PAKISTAN IS JUST THE RIGHTCOUNTRY --

>> Jon: YOU ARE TELLING USTHIS NOW?

>> I WOULD HAVE TOLD YOU 50YEARS AGO, TOO BUT YOU HAD TO

MAKE THE MISTAKES FOR ME TOWRITE THE BOOK.

>> Jon: LET ME SAY THIS INTRUE AMERICAN FASHION: YOU'RE

WELCOME.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> THANK HAVE YOU VERY MUCH.

[LAUGHTER]-- THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Jon: DO YOU THINK THESE AREMAGNIFICENT DELUSIONS AND

MISUNDERSTANDINGS OR DO WE BOTHREALLY KNOW WHAT WE'RE GETTING

FROM OTHER SIDE?

>> IF THIS WAS A TRANSACTIONCLEARLY LAID OUT THERE WOULD

HAVE BEEN LESSER PROBLEMS THANWE'VE HAD. ON MANY OCCASIONS AND

THERE ARE MANY INSTANCES IN THEBOOK.

I DO KNOW HOW TO IN TRUEAMERICAN FASHION MAKE A PLUG FOR

THE BOOK.

PEOPLE HAVE TO READ IT.

>> Jon: SURE.

IT'S QUITE GOOD.

>> PRESIDENT REAGAN WAS TOLD BYTHE C.I.A. THAT PAKISTAN WAS

GOING AHEAD WITH ITS NUCLEARPROGRAM.

HE ASKED THE PAKISTANIDICTATORSHIP AT THE TIME THAT

WAS HELPFUL IN THE WAR AGAINSTTHE SOVIETS IN AFGHANISTAN.

THE GENERAL PUT HIS HAND ON HISHEART AND SAID NO WAY ARE WE

MAKING A NUCLEAR WEAPON ANDRONALD REAGAN SAID, ALL RIGHT,

OKAY, FINE I TAKE YOUR WORD FORIT.

THOSE ARE DELUSIONS.

WHY WOULD A COUNTRY GIVE UP ITSNUCLEAR PROGRAM UNLESS AND UNTIL

THE BENEFITS OF GIVING IT UPOUTWEIGHED THE BENEFITS OF

HAVING IT.

>> Jon: BECAUSE HE PUT HISHAND ON HIS HEART WHICH IS -- AS

YOU KNOW -- A BOND THAT CAN'T BEBROKEN.

>> I'M SURE THE GENERAL LEARNEDFROM --

>> Jon: I THINK YOU MIGHT BERIGHT.

SINCE 1947 WE'VE BEEN GIVING ATREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF AID TO

PAKISTAN WITH THE IDEA THAT THEYARE GOING TO BE AN INCREDIBLE

STRATEGIC ALLY AGAINST THESOVIETS, AGAINST NOW ISLAMIC

EXTREMISTS.

WHAT MAKES US THINK THAT THAT ISTHE CASE?

>> WELL -->> Jon: WHAT HAVE THEY

DELIVERED ON AND WHAT DO THEYWANT FROM US OTHER THAN THAT

MONEY?

>> YOU WERE TAKE BEING THEN.S.A. A LITTLE WHILE AGO.

THE N.S.A. AT ONE POINT IN THE1950'S.

THERE WERE NO SATELLITES.

THEY NEEDED A GROUND BASE FROMWHERE TO SPY ON THE SOVIET

UNION.

PAKISTAN OFFERED THEM ONE.

THE FLIGHTS USED TO TAKE OFFFROM A PLACE NEAR PESHAWAR IN

PAKISTAN.

THOSE KIND OF ADVANTAGES ARE THEQUID PRO QUO.

THE COST HAS BEEN ENORMOUS.

PAKISTAN HAS BECOME ARMOUS.

DYSFUNCTIONAL COUNTRY.

ALMOST 42% OF THE PAKISTANISCHOOL GOING AGE CHILDREN DON'T

GO TO SCHOOL.

YOU HAD MALALA HERE WHO SHOULDHAVE BEEN A HEROINE IN ANY OTHER

COUNTRY. SHE'SVILIFIED IN PAKISTAN BY SOME

PEOPLE.

THE ISLAMIST FUNDAMENTALISTS WHOWERE TRAINED TO FIGHT THE

SOVIETS IN AFGHANISTAN AREA NUISANCE FOR THE UNITED

STATES GLOBALLY AND AREAL THREAT TO PAKISTAN,AFGHANISTAN AND INDIA.

THE PROBLEM IS PAKISTAN'SLEADERSHIP FOCUSED ON ONE

THING HOW TO MAKE PAKISTANMILITARILY EQUAL TO INDIA.

THE AMERICANS ASSUMED IF WE GIVETHEM ENOUGH MILITARY EQUIPMENT

THEY'LL TURN AWAY FROM THATPURPOSE.

THAT WAS A MISTAKE BECAUSEPAKISTAN NEVER GAVE A SINGLE

SOLDIER TO FIGHT THESOVIETS EVEN THOUGH THEYKEPT ACCEPTING THE

AID ON THE PREMISE THEYWOULD HELP FIGHT THE SOVIET

UNION.

>> Jon: IN SOME RESPECTS WE'VEMADE THIS EXACT SAME DELUSION

WE'VE GIVEN THIS MONEY ANDMILITARY STRENGTH IN THE HOPES

OF BUILDING AN ALLY THAT WOULDNEVER TURN AROUND AND BITE US

AND PAKISTAN HAS USED THEISLAMIST MILITANTS IN THE EXACT

SAME FASHION, GIVING THEM MONEYAND ARMS IN THE HOPES THEY

WOULDN'T BITE THEM.

AREN'T WE SUFFERING FROM THESAME --?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

HENCE THE PLURAL DELUSIONS.

THERE ARE DELUSIONS ON BOTHSIDES.

THE PAKISTANI MILITARY ISFIGHTING THE SAME PEOPLE IT

TRAIN AND ARMED.

THEY MAKE A DISTINCTION BETWEENGOOD TALIBAN AND BAD TALIBAN.

THE DESIRE FOR INFLUENCE INN.

AFGHANISTAN REMAINS AMAJOR OBSESSION.

>> Jon: IS THIS THE REASON WHYEDUCATION IS SO DIFFICULT TO

COME BY IN PAKISTAN?

IT'S A VERY SOPHISTICATEDCOUNTRY WITH SOPHISTICATED

PEOPLE AND BRIGHT PEOPLE, WHYWOULD THEY ALLOW 43% OF THEIR

PEOPLE NOT BE EDUCATED?

>> JON, PAKISTANIS ARE AWONDERFUL PEOPLE.

I KNOW THAT BECAUSE I'M ONE.

[ LAUGHTER ]BUT THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN --

>> Jon: YEAH.

[ APPLAUSE ]>> THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN OUR

GOVERNMENT AND ESPECIALLY OURMILITARY.

WE INHERIT IT FROM THE BRITISHIN 1947 WHEN PARTITION OCCURRED.

ONE-THIRD OF BRITAIN INDIAN ARMYBUT ONLY 17% OF THE RESOURCES.

INSTEAD OF DECIDING THAT, YOUKNOW WHAT?

OUR MILITARY SHOULD BE TRIMMEDDOWN TO THE SIZE THAT WE CAN

AFFORD, WE ENDED UP SUPPORTINGIT.

EVEN NOW WHAT AMERICA HAS DONETO PAKISTAN IS THAT IT HAS

CREATED THIS DEPENDENCE INSTEADOF RAISING TAXES, INSTEAD OF

EXPORTING MORE, WE JUST WAIT FORASSISTANCE.

AND WE HAVE A VERY LARGEMILITARY.

WE HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

SO IT'S LIKE SOMEBODY WHO ISJUST EXERCISING ONE ARM WHICH IS

THE MILITARY.

TOTALLY IGNORING EDUCATION.

IN 1947, IN WHAT IS TODAY INDIA,HAD 18% LITERACY. WHAT IS TODAY

PAKISTAN, 16. TODAY THATDIFFERENCE HAS BECOME A

20% DIFFERENCE.

THAT'S THE MISTAKE THAT HAPPENSWHEN FOREIGN POLICY IS MADE

BASED ON DELUSIONS.

>> Jon: LET ME SAY THIS AGAINYOU'RE WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Jon: STICK AROUND FOR AMINUTE.

MAGNIFICENT DELUSIONS.

ON BOOKSHELVES NOW.

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