April 24, 2014 - Ramachandra Guha

  • Episode: 19094
  • (0)

The Best F#@king News Team Ever tries to help CNN, John Oliver discusses his post-correspondent life, and Ramachandra Guha shares Gandhi's early political influences.

[ APPLAUSE ]>> Jon: HELLO, EVERYBODY.

WELCOME TO "THE DAILY SHOW".

MY NAME IS JON STEWART.

MY GUEST TONIGHT, AUTHORRAMACHANDRA GUHA.

WE ARE GOING TO TALK ALITTLE BIT ABOUT GANDHI BUT NOT

THE GANDHI YOU KNOW,THE YOUNG GANDHI, BUT

RECENTLY ON OUR PROGRAM WE HAD ALITTLE BIT OF FUN WITH THE STORY

OF THE FELLOW NAMED CLIVE BUNDY,HE'S WHAT YOU CALL

A GRAZING FEE DENIER WHOSPARKED AN ARMED STANDOFF WITH

THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN ANEFFORT TO KEEP HIS COWS ON

WELFARE.

WELL, MR. BUNDY WHO DOES NOTRECOGNIZE THE EXISTENCE OF THE

AMERICAN GOVERNMENT HAD BECOME ABIT OF A HERO TO MANY ON THE

RIGHT.

BUT IN ALL THE MANY INTERVIEWSMR. BUNDY HAS DONE WITH THE

CONSERVATIVE MEDIA OUTLETS THEREWAS ONE THING HE FORGOT TO

MENTION.

>> I WANT TO TELL YOU ONE MORETHING I KNOW AMOUNT THE NEGRO.

I KNOW ABOUT THE NEGRO.

>> Jon: IN A SURPRISINGTWIST.

STATE'S RIGHTS, SOVEREIGNCITIZEN CLIVEN

BUNDY IS APPARENTLY ALSO APROFESSOR OF NEGRO STUDIES.

>> NOW WHAT DO THEY DO, THEYABORT THEIR YOUNG CHILDREN, THEY

PUT THEIR YOUNG MEN IN JAILS,BECAUSE THEY NEVER, THEY NEVER

LEARNED HOW TO PICK COTTON.

>> Jon: I SHOULD HAVEMENTIONED HE IS A PROFESSOR AT

DUKE UNIVERSITY.

DAVID DUKE UNIVERSITY.

>> AND I'VE OFTEN WONDERED, ARETHEY BETTER OFF AS SLAVES,

PICKING COTTON AND HAVING FAMILYLIFE AND DOING DIFFERENT THINGS

OR ARE THEY BETTER OFF UNDERGOVERNMENT SUBSIDY?

>> Jon: WELL, IT IS ANINTERESTING QUESTION, I GUESS

HISTORY WILL BE THE JUDGE.

OH, LOOK AT THAT, HISTORYALREADY DECIDED AND THE ANSWER

IS NO. THEY ARE NOT BETTER OFF.

THEY ARE BETTER OFF NOW THANTHEY WERE AS SLAVES BECAUSE

ANYBODY WOULD BE BETTER OFF THANAS A SLAVE.

WHAT THE -- IF I MAY OFFER A BITOF ADVICE TO THE TELEVISION

OUTLET THAT WAS PROMOTING THISGENTLEMAN.

IT WOULD BE NICE NOT TO SEE THISANYMORE.

>> I GUESS MAYBE I AM A LITTLEBIT LIKE THE FOUNDING FATHERS.

>> Jon: WELL, YES, A BIT LIKETHE FOUNDING FATHERS, BUT THE

BIT OF YOU THAT IS LIKE OURFOUNDING FATHERS IS THE BIT OF

THEM WE ARE ASHAMED OF.

SO OBVIOUSLY I CAN'T WATCH WHATI NORMALLY WATCH NEWS WISE, I

GUESS I WILL JUST FLIP BACK OVERTO CNN AND SEE WHAT THEY ARE UP

TO.

>> NEXT BREAKING NEWS, THE MOSTPROMISING LEAD YET, DEBRIS

WASHING UP ON AN AUSTRALIANBEACH, TONIGHT IS IT THE PLANE?

>> Jon: OH FOR (BLEEP) SAKE! STILL?

[ APPLAUSE ]>> Jon: THE LAST 100 PIECES OF

DEBRIS CNN BREATHLESSLYREPORTED ON WERE NOT THE PLANE.

BUT NOW THIS, THIS IS THE PLANE?ALRIGHT.

LET'S SKIP AHEAD LITERALLY 24SECONDS AND GO.

>> TONIGHT WE BEGIN WITH THEBREAKING NEWS A POTENTIALLY GAME

CHANGING NEW QUESTION ALSO INTHE SEARCH OF MALAYSIA AIRLINES

FLIGHT 370, HIGH HOPES THAT APIECE OF DEBRIS FOUND ON THE

SHORE OF AUSTRALIA WAS THEPLANE DASHED JUST MOMENTS AGO.

>> Jon: YOU ARE TELLING METHERE WAS BREAKING NEWS THAT

THIS MIGHT BE THE PLANE AND INTHE TIME IT TOOK YOU TO ROLL

YOUR THEME SONG YOU FOUNDOUT BREAKING NEWS.

NO IT IS NOTHING.

THE WORST PART IS YOU KNOW CNNWAS LIKE GREAT JOB, EVERYBODY,

WE SCOOPED EVERYBODY ON THEPLANE DEBRIS STORY AND THEN WE

SCOOPED THEM AGAIN WHEN IT WASNOTHING! THAT'S HOW YOU RUN A

NEWS NETWORK.

>> THERE HAS TO BE SOMETHINGELSE WORTH COVERING.

>> THE NEW U.N. REPORT ONCLIMATE CHANGE IS FULL OF

SERIOUS WARNINGS AND PREDICTIONSOF WHAT IS TO COME.

>> INTENSE HEAT WAVES THAT FEEDFIRES, WIPING OUT FORESTS AND

HOMES. PROLONGEDDRAUGHTS THAT DAMAGE

FOOD AND WATERSUPPLIES FOR BILLIONS OF PEOPLE.

>> Jon: I MEAN SURE, BUT THATIS JUST PBS, I MEAN THEY ARE

TALKING ABOUT THEU.N. REPORT THAT STATED

THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE.

BUT THAT, ACTUALLY SOUNDSLIKE IT COULD BE SOMETHING.

IT IS NO WHEEL OF FLOTSAM LIKETHEY ARE REPORTING ON CNN BUT IN

FACT THE DAY THE REPORT DROPPEDON CLIMATE CHANGE, FOX AND

NBC DEVOTED AROUND 22 MINUTES OF

COVERAGE TO IT, FOX MOSTLYTO DEBUNK IT AND MSNBC

TO SEE HOW IT AFFECTED HILLARY'SCHANCE OF BECOMING PRESIDENT.

BUT, CNN CLOCKED IN AT TWOMINUTES, TECHNICALLY TWO MINUTES

AND TEN SECONDS, I GUESSCNN IS ONLY INTERESTED

IN WHAT IS FLOATINGIN THE WORLD'S OCEANS.

CNN, DON'T YOU THINK THIS ISACTUAL MEANINGFUL NEWS AND COULD

FIT VERY WELL INTO YOURUNNECESSARY OVER DRAMATIC

HOLOGRAM ROOMS, VIRTUAL

REALITY RIDES AND RANDOM STREETYELLING? YOU CAN'T USE YOUR

HOLO-DECK GREEN SCREEN ROOM TOTALK ABOUT GLOBAL WARNING. JASON

JONES, SHOW THEM HOW IT IS DONE.

>> THANK YOU, JON. I'M OUTHERE IN THE STATE OF THE ART

STIMULATION OF WHAT IT WILL BELIKE WHEN WE ARE

ALL BOILING IN THE WORLD'SRISING OCEANS.

>> Jon: JASON, YOU ARE IN AHOT TUB, JASON.

YOU ARE IN A HOT TUB.

>> OH YEAH, IS THAT WHATYOU THINK? WELL, CHECK THIS OUT.

HOLO-DECK OFF.

>> BEST GRAPHIC TEAM IN THEBUSINESS. THEY WERE EVEN ABLE TO

HIDE THIS PING-PONG BALLI ALWAYS WEAR ON MY CROTCH FOR

PLEASURE, IT'S FOR A DIFFERENTKIND OF SPECIAL EFFECT, IF YOU

KNOW WHAT I MEAN. ITMAKES MY (BLEEP) HUGE.

>> Jon: ALRIGHT, THANK YOU.

I AM GLAD I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT YOUMEANT.

CNN, YOU WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE TOCHANGE THAT MUCH AS PART OF YOUR

MONTH AND A HALF LONG BREATHLESS

PLANE SEARCH YOU ALREADYHAVE MARTIN SAVIDGE

UNDERWATER TO DEMONSTRATE WHATIT IS LIKE UNDER WATER.

YOU CAN EASILY REPURPOSE THATFOR GLOBAL WARMING COVERAGE.

>> MARTIN SAVIDGE, WHAT WOULDTHE VISIBILITY BE LIKE IF WE

WERE ALL UNDER WATER DUE TOCATASTROPHIC CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> AS YOU CAN SEE, THEVISIBILITY HERE REALLY IS

VERY, VERY LIMITED.

>> Jon: THANKS, MARTIN.

STAY DOWN THERE FOR ANOTHER FEWWEEKS.

I MIGHT HAVE ANOTHER QUESTIONFOR YOU.

AND CNN, HOW ABOUT YOUR BOSTONMANHUNT COVERAGE WHEN YOU SENT

YOUR FINEST REPORTERS INTOTHE STREETS TO SHOUT AND POINT

AT (BLEEP).

>> GUYS, YOU HAVE TO COME TO US.

LISTEN, OKAY.

THAT IS AT LEAST THE THIRDCANINE DOG THAT BEGAN BARKING,

BARKING VERY, VERY LOUDLY,SO THEY MAY BE SMELLING

WHAT WE -- WHAT WETHOUGHT WE SMELLED.

>> Jon: CNN.

YOUR PLACE FOR WHAT A DOGSOMEWHERE MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT BE

SMELLING.

WHY CAN'T YOU GIVE CLIMATECHANGE THE SAME TREATMENT.

>> JON, JON, JON, OVER HERE, CUTTO ME. I SAW A FAT KID EATING

ICE CREAM AND MAYBEBECAUSE IT IS HOT

OUT AND MAY BE BECAUSE HE ISFAT. WE DON'T KNOW.

>> JON, I'M HERE ON THE WESTSIDE, THE APOCALYPSE MAY

HAVE ALREADY HAPPENED. THEREARE DOGS HERE. I

SEE NOTHING BUT DOGS, THEY MAYBE

TRYING TO FORM THEIR OWN DOGGOVERNMENT, I DON'T KNOW.

>> COME BACK TO ME. COMEBACK TO ME, I DEFINITELY

SMELL BREAD, OKAY, THESMELL IS EVERYWHERE. IT

COULD BE A SEIZURE,IT COULD BE PLOTIZA.

>> JON, AS THE DAYPROGRESSES TEMPERATURES ARE

DEFINITELY GETTING WARMER. IT ISHOTTER

THAN IT WAS WHEN I WOKE UP THISMORNING.

>> WAIT, COME BACK TO ME RIGHTNOW.

IS IT LIVE? AM I ON? OKAY.

DAMN IT. I FORGOT WHAT I WASGOING TO SAY (BLEEP).

>> I HAVE JUST RECEIVED A TWEETHERE, SORRY, IT IS A SNAPCHAT

AND IT LOOKS LIKE A PING-PONGBALL SURROUNDED BY HAIR.

OH, SORRY, JOHN, YES, LOT OFACTIVITY STILL HAPPENING OUT

HERE.

>> Jon: THANK YOU, GUYS. YOUSEE,

CNN, YOU DON'T HAVE TO WASTEYOUR TIME AND RESOURCES ON

HYPERBOLIC UNNECESSARYRIDICULOUS STUNT COVERAGE OF

SPECULATIVE NONSTORIES YOU CANWASTE YOUR TIME AN RESOURCES ON

HYPERBOLIC AND RIDICULOUSCOVERAGE OF REAL STORIES TOO.

WE WILL BE RIGHT BACK.

[ APPLAUSE ]

[ APPLAUSE ]>> Jon: WELCOME BACK!

TURNING TO SLIGHTLY LESSRELEVANT NEWS, THE ROYAL COUPLE,

WILLIAM AND KATE ARE WRAPPING UPA THREE-WEEK TRIP DOWN UNDER.

THE FIRST OFFICIAL TOUR WITHHIS ROYAL BABY-NESS, PRINCE

GEORGE ALEXANDER BLUNDERBUSSROHYPNOL SAXE-COBURG LEIBOWITZWINDSOR.

>> PRINCE WILLIAM ANDKATE

CELEBRATED EASTER AT ACATHEDRAL IN SYDNEY BEFORE A

TRIP TO THE ZOO ON SUNDAY WITHPRINCE GEORGE.

THAT IS WHERE THE YOUNG FUTUREKING PERFORMED HIS FIRST

OFFICIAL DUTY.

>> Jon: HIS FIRST OFFICIALDOODIE? YOU ARE TELLING ME THIS

BABY HASN'T TAKEN A (bleep) INNINE MONTHS? OR WERE HIS

PREVIOUS DOODIES OFF THE RECORD?

>> AH.

SPEAKING OF NUMBER 2.

>> WELL, LET THE SPECULATIONBEGIN, THE DUKE AND DUCHESS OF

CAMBRIDGE HAVE FUELED NEW RUMORSON THEIR TRIP TO NEW ZEALAND

THAT THEY COULD BE EXPECTINGAGAIN.

>> BUT ALL THAT ROYALBABY CHATTER QUICKLY QUIETED

WHEN KATE WENT PINOTTASTING AND THEN TOOK A

WILD RIDE IN A WHITE WATER JETBOAT.

>> Jon: FOLLWED BY A TRIPTO SIX FLAGS OVER SYDNEY TO

RIDE THE FAMOUS WOMB SHAKER.FINALLY A VISIT TO A KANGAROO

SANCTUARY TO MEET STU THEKICKING ROO, I AM NOT

LOOK, I'M NOT SAYING KATEDOESN'T WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER

BABY RIGHT NOW BUT SHE SEEMSTO BE MAKING IT EXTRA HARD

FOR WILLIAM TO EVEN GET HERCLOTHES OFF.

I THINK BY THE 20TH BUTTON THEYBOTH WOULD BE ASLEEP.

>> AND FOR MORE WE GO OUT TO OURSENIOR BRITISH CORRESPONDENT,

JESSICA SMYTHE-WILLIAMS LIVE INSYDNEY.

JESSICA, THANK YOU FORJOINING US.

>> 'ELLO GUVNAH.

>> A PIP PIP BOB'S YOUR UNCLE.

>> JESSICA AS A BRITISH PERSON.

>> YES. >> Jon: WERE YOU --

>>WHOA, WHOA, WHOA, WHOA.

AS A BRITISH PERSON! AS ABRITISH PERSON!

[ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ]AS A BRITISH PERSON!

>> JON, SHE IS FROM SOUTHERNCALIFORNIA.

>> I AM BLOODY NOT, MATE.

YOU HAVE BANGERS FOR BRAINS.

>> WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

>> 'ELLO GUVNAH!

>> A BIG FAN, MR. OLIVER.

>> WHO THE HELL IS THIS?JON, WHAT YOU'VE DONE TO THIS

MAN IS TWO DEGREES FROM A RACECRIME.

>> Jon: LOOK, I'M SORRY. I'MSORRY. WE HAD TO GET YOU OVER

HERE SOMEHOW. IT WAS THE ONLYWAY WE KNEW HOW.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO SIT DOWN ANDCATCH UP.

>> SURE, I MEAN, I'M INAUSTRALIA BUT I WILL BE RIGHT

THERE. >>Jon: ALL RIGHT.

[ APPLAUSE ][ CHEERS AND APPLAUSE ]

>> HOW IS IT GOING?

>> LOVELY, LOVELY.

OH.

WE SEEM TO BE MISSING SOMETHING.

>> Jon: OH, FOR GOD'S SAKES.

WHERE A ARE MY MANNERS.

>> BETTER. BETTER. SIGNIFICANTLYBETTER.

WHAT ARE WE, ANIMALS? THERE ITIS.

THERE IT IS. THERE SHE BLOWS.

>> THERE SHE BLOWS. LOOK, I AMSO PRACTICED.

>> Jon: NOW, LISTEN, I DRINK ITEVERY DAY AT LET'S SAY NOON.

>> OOH THIS IS SKUNK TEA.

>> MMM, MMM, THAT IS -- THAT ISGOOD.

>> YUM, YUM, YUM.

>> Jon: WATER.

BY THE WAY, YOU LOOK GREAT.

>> YES, I DO.

>> Jon: YES.>> YES.

I KNOW I LOOK GREAT, JOHN. WELLSPOTTED.

OF COURSE YOU REMEMBER HOW ILOOKED FOUR MONTHS AGO WHEN I

LEFT HERE.

>> Jon: YEAH.

>> THERE YOU GO.

>> Jon: THAT IS THE JOHNOLIVER I REMEMBERED.

DID YOU GET SOME WORK DONE?

>> QUITE THE OPPOSITE, JON, IHAD SOME WORK NOT DONE.

REMEMBER, I AM ONLY DOING ONESHOW A WEEK NOW AND YOU KNOW

WHAT THAT MEANS.

I GET TO GO OUTDOORS EVERY DAYAND SEE THE, UM UM,

WHAT'S THE (bleep) -->> Jon: SUN!

>> YES.

AND INSTEAD OF BEING STUCK INTHE OFFICE I AM SPENDING TIME

WITH MY -- UM --

>> DEALER?

>> WIFE, WIFE, JON, YES.

AND I'VE BEEN DOING THAT THINGWHERE YOU LAY ON THE CUSHION

AND EVERYTHING GOES BLACKFOR EIGHT HOURS.

>> Jon: PEYOTE.

>> SLEEP. JON, DO YOU HAVE ADRUG PROBLEM.

>> Jon: NO, I DON'T HAVE APROBLEM NECESSARILY, BUT YOU

LIKE IT OVER THERE AT HBO? IT'SNICE.

>> OH GOD, ARE YOUKIDDING ME?

PAID CABLE IS AMAZING.

NO ADVERTISERS, YOU CAN DOWHATEVER YOU WANT.

THIS IS ONE OF HBO'S HIT SHOWS.

>> YOU SEE EVERYTHING OUTSIDEOUR DIMENSION AS ETERNITY.

NOW TO US, IT IS A SPHERE, BUTTO THEM IT IS A CIRCLE.

NOW TO US, IT IS A SPHERE, BUTTO THEM IT IS A CIRCLE.

>> I WATCHED THE WHOLE SEASONEIGHT TIMES, AND I TELL YOU,

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL HEIS TALKING ABOUT.

I AM TELLING YOU, JON, HBO WILLLET ME SAY WHATEVER THE (BLEEP)

I WANT.

WAIT A HOLD ON, WHAT WAS THATWEIRD BLEEPING SOUND DID YOU

HEAR THAT (BLEEP) NOISE.

THERE IT GOES AGAIN.

>> Jon: OH, WE HERE ON BASICCABLE WE BLEEP OUT THE

CURSING. THAT IS WHAT YOU AREHEARING.

YOU REMEMBER?

>> OH, YOU POOR SAD (BLEEP).

>> HBO LETS ME CURSE MY (BLEEP),(BLEEP) OFF. AND THE NUDITY,

JON, I AM PANTLESS IN MY FIRSTTHREE EPISODES.

>> Jon: I GET IT, I GET IT.

HBO IS A WONDERLAND OFEXPLETIVES IN A FOREST OF DONGS.

>> OH, YOU HAVE SEEN "GAME OFTHRONES" THEN.

>> Jon: BOOM.

>> YOU'VE SEEN "GAME OF THRONES"THEN.

>> Jon: BING.

>> I SAID YOU'VE SEEN "GAME OFTHRONES" THEN.

>> BOOYAH!

>> THAT REMINDS ME, JON, I HAVETO GO. I AM LATE FOR MY HOT OIL

GIRAFFE MASSAGE WITH PETERDINKLAGE.

>> Jon: DAMN YOU, OLIVER!JOHN OLIVER, EVERYBODY.

>> Jon: LAST WEEK TONIGHT,PREMIERS SUNDAY AT 11:00!

WE WILL BE RIGHT BACK.

[ APPLAUSE ]>> Jon: WELCOME BACK, MY GUEST

TONIGHT, ANAUTHOR, HIS NEW BOOK IS "GANDHI

BEFORE INDIA," PLEASE WELCOMERAMACHANDRA GUHA.

HELLO, SIR.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

NICE TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

THIS IS -- HERE IS WHAT I LOVE.

THIS IS THE BOOK, GANDHI BEFOREINDIA.

WHEN YOU ARE DEALING WITH ANICONIC FIGURE, A FIGURE THAT

BELONGS TO THE AGES, TO BRING APERSPECTIVE TO IT THAT IS

VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN TO MANY PEOPLEWHO BELIEVE THEY KNOW HIM WELL.

I BELIEVE I KNOW GANDHI, YOU SAYGANDHI I HAVE ALL OF THESE

THINGS I THINK I KNOW.

>> YES.

>> Jon: I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING. THIS IS AN AMAZING EXPERIENCE TO

READ ABOUT HIM IN HIS YOUNGERLIFE.

>> YES.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT, JON,NEVER TO TRUST YOUR SUBJECT'S

AUTOBIOGRAPHY.

YOU KNOW, EVEN A GUY AS FAMOUSAS GANDHI, I MEAN YOU WRITE YOUR

MEMOIRS?

>> Jon: WHAT?

>> YOUR BIOGRAPHER WOULD SAY,THIS IS A PREEMPTIVE STRIKE

AGAINST ME. YOU HAVE GOT TO STOPIT.

>> Jon: I SEE.

>> NOW, GANDHI HAS WRITTEN ABOUTHIS LIFE, OTHER PEOPLE HAVE

WRITTEN ABOUT GANDHI'S LIFEBASED ON GANDHI'S WRITINGS.

BUT WHAT I TRIED TO DO WAS TOLOOK AT PERSPECTIVES THAT GO

BEYOND HIM, WHATPEOPLE ARE SAYING ABOUT HIM,

IN SOUTH AFRICA FOR EXAMPLE THEWHITE NEWSPAPERS,

NOT -- IN A NOT DISSIMILARMANNER TO THE NEVADA NEWSPAPERS

YOU WERE JUST TALKING ABOUT,WROTE VERY VICIOUS THINGS ABOUT

HIM. YOU KNOW, SATIRICALFUNNY POEMS. YOU KNOW,

THEY WERE HIS FRIENDS, HISRIVALS. SO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE

SAYING AMOUNT GANDHI, LETTERS,DOCUMENTS CAN ILLUMINATE HIS

LIFE, HIS EARLY FORMATION, HISVIEWS, MUCH BETTER THAN HE IS

REMEMBERED OR DARE I SAY ITMISREMEMBERED MEMORIES OF HIS

EARLY LIFE.

>> Jon: BUT THAT IS WHAT ISSO FASCINATING.

WHAT I LOVE ABOUT WHAT YOUBROUGHT TO THIS IS CONTEXT

BECAUSE AS YOU LIONIZE ANINDIVIDUAL THEY BEGIN TO NARROW.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> Jon: IN OUR MEMORY.

AND YOU FORGET, YOU KNOW, IT ISLIKE WHEN I LOOK AT A BLACK AND

WHITE PICTURE.

I FORGET, OH THAT JACKET COULDBE BRIGHT GREEN, THAT HAT COULD

BE YELLOW.

YOU FORGET THAT PEOPLE LIVEDTHEIR LIVES IN COLOR.

>> INDEED.

>> AND THEY LIVE THIER LIVES INRELATIONSHIPS. YOU TALKED

ABOUT LIONIZE, YOU KNOW, I'VETRIED TO HUMANIZE GHANDI.

>> Jon: YES.

>> GANDHI WAS ORTHODOX HINDUPATRIARCH. AND HE WAS MADE MORE

SENSITIVE TO GENDER RIGHTS BY AREMARKABLE WOMAN SECRETARY HE

HAD, A JEWISH WOMAN CALLED SONJASCHLESIN. YOU KNOW,

HE WAS AN UPPER CASTE HINDU BUTIN SOUTH AFRICA BECAUSE HE WAS

FORTUNATE TO LIVE IN THEDIASPORA WITH WORKING CLASS

TAMILS FROM SOUTH INDIA. HEUNDERSTOOD THE ETHNIC,

RELIGIOUS, CULTURAL DIVERSITYOF HIS COUNTRY.

>> Jon: RIGHT.

>> HAD GANDHI SUCCEEDED AT THEBAR IN BOMBAY, YOU KNOW,

GANDHI AS A YOUNG MAN GOESTO LONDON, QUALIFIES AS A

BARRISTER AND COMES BACK WITHHIS SUIT TO BOMBAY AND FAILS

THE BAR NOT JUST ONCE BUTTWICE. AND HAD HE SUCCEEDED AS

A LAWYER IN BOMBAY YOUAND I WOULD NOT BE HAVING

THIS CONVERSATION. HE FAILEDAND RECEIVED PROFESSIONAL

OBLIVION BY AN INVITATIONIN SOUTH AFRICA WHERE HE

MADE HIS NAME AS AN ACTIVIST ANDWHERE HE MET AND BEFRIENDED AN

EXTRAORDINARY DIVERSITY OFPEOPLE WHO EXPANDED HIS

HORIZON. AND FINALLY, OFCOURSE, AGAINST RACIALLY

DISCRIMINATORY LAWIN SOUTH AFRICA HE LAUNCHED

THE WORLD'S FIRST NONVIOLENTPROTEST MOVEMENT, LATER

FOLLOWED SUCCESSFULLY BYDR. KING AND OTHERS BUT IF THIS

MAN HAD SUCCEEDED AS A LAWYER HEWOULD NOT HAVE TRANSFORMED INDIA

OR THE WORLD.

SO THERE IS A LESSON IN THIS.

>> Jon: THERE IS A LESSON.

AND LET THIS LESSON GO OUT TOJEWISH MOTHERS EVERYWHERE.

IF YOUR SON DOES NOT BECOME ALAWYER OR A DOCTOR, IT IS NOT

TRAGEDY, BUT, IN FACT, APRECURSOR TO GREATNESS! THANK

YOU! HERE'S WHAT'S SOFASCINATING, TOO. SO,

[ APPLAUSE ]WHEN YOU SAY --

>> NOT JUST JEWISH MOTHERS, BUTINDIAN MOTHERS.

>> Jon: ABSOLUTELY,

ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS A UNIVERSAL TRAITAMONGST THE MOTHER CLASS.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT GANDHIBEFORE, IT IS HARD TO THINK OF

HIM EXISTING OUT OF INDIA ANDTHE IDEA THAT EVEN HIS FIRST

RISE TO CONSCIOUSNESS OFOPPRESSION WAS NOT EVEN WITHININDIA BUT

SOUTH AFRICA AND ALMOST NOT FORTHE APARTHEID STATE AND

SUBJUGATION OF THE BLACKPOPULATION BUT THE INDIAN

POPULATION THAT IS LIVING IN THEDIASPORA THERE.

>> YES. YOU KNOW, THE INDIANS,THEY WERE SEEN AS A SECT BY THE

EUROPEANS, BECAUSE OFCOURSE THE AFRICANS ARE MUCH

MORE NUMEROUS AND OFCOURSE THEY WOULD SOMETIMES RISE

IN INSURRECTIONS BUTTHEY WERE DISPERSED IN

THE COUNTRYSIDE AND THEY WERENOT EDUCATED.

THE INDIANS WERE RUNNING SHOPSON THE EUROPEN MAIN STREET,

DISPLACING DUTCH AND BRITISHSHOPKEEPERS. YOU HAD ERNEST

LAWYERS LIKE GANDHIWHO MIGHT TAKE OVER YOUR

BUSINESS, INDIANS ARE BECOMINGDOCTORS SO THERE WAS A KIND OF

PARANOIA ABOUT INDIANS AND WHOMIGHT MIGRATE IN THEIR LARGE

HOARDS FROM THEEAST AND CLAIM THE CONTINENT

YOU HAD COME IN, YOU KNOW,COLONIZING FROM THE WEST.

SO, THE FIRST RACIALLYDISCRIMINATORY LAWS SOME OF THEM

WERE APPLIED AGAINST INDIANS ANDTHE INDIAN RESISTANCE

LED BY GANDHI, YOU KNOW, OFCOURSE, THEN BECAME MUCH

GREATER AND MORE WIDESPREAD,THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS

WAS FOUNDED IN 1912 TOWARDTHE END OF GANDHI'S STAY IN

SOUTH AFRICA AND ITS PARTLYINFLUENCED BY GANDHI'S EXAMPLE.

OF COURSE GANDHI WAS LIMITED ANDHE WASN'T A UNIVERSAL FIGURE AND

DIDN'T REACH OUT TO THEAFRICANS. HE HAD AFRICAN FRIENDS

BUT HE DID TAKE UP THEIR CAUSE,BUT BY SLOWLY AND PERSISTENTLY

UNDERMINING THE RACIAL EDIFICEOF THE SOUTH AFRICAN STATE IN A

MODEST WAY HE PREPARED THE WAYFOR NELSON MANDELA AND ALL

THE GREAT FIGURES WHO FOLLOWEDIN SOUTH AFRICA ITSELF AND OF

COURSE HE TRAINED HIMSELF TOUNDERTAKE THE KIND OF MASSIVE

FREEDOM STRUGGLE HE WAS TO DO ININDIA.

SO, SOUTH AFRICA WAS FORMATIVETO GANDHI.

AND IT WAS IGNORED INEARLIER BOOKS, SO I

>> Jon: AND FORMATIVE INOTHER WAYS ALSO BECAUSE HIS

INFLUENCES ARE COMING FROMTOLSTOY, FROM ALL

OF THESE DIFFERENT AREAS THATYOU WOULD HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT.

IT IS FASCINATING.

>> YES.

AGAIN, IT IS CURIOUS, JON,GANDHI SO FAR AS I KNOW, NEVER

READ WAR AND PEACE OR ANNAKARENINA, HE HAD NO INTEREST IN

TOLSTOY THE NOVELIST BUT TOLSTOYTHE PHILOSOPHER. TOLSTOY WRITES

IN QUOTING A LINE FROM THEBIBLE, THE KINGDOM OF GOD

IS WITHIN YOU. THAT IS YOUR PATHTO TRUTH AND

SPIRITUALITY IS NOT WHAT THEBISHOP SAYS OR WHAT THE HOLY

IMMAN SAYS NOT WHAT THE HINDUHOLY MAN SAYS BUT YOU FIND IT

YOURSELF. SO IT'S IN THEDIASPORA THAT HE READS

TOLSTOY. IF HE WAS IN INDIA,HE PROBABLY WOULD NEVER HAVE

ENCOUNTERED IT.>> Jon: RIGHT.

IT IS A FASCINATING LOOK FROMANOTHER PERSPECTIVE AND I LOVE

IT, AND YOUR ENTHUSIASM ISMAKING ME VERY HAPPY RIGHT NOW.

I REALLY DO.

THIS IS AN EXCITING BOOK AND ANEXCITING PROJECT, GANDHI BEFORE

INDIA.

IT IS ON THE BOOKSHELVES NOW.GET IT.

RAMACHANDRA GUHA, THANK YOU,SIR.

>> Jon: THAT'S OUR SHOW.

HERE IT IS OUR MOMENT OF ZEN.

>> NORTH KOREA STATE TV AIREDTHESE CHEEKY TODDLER PICTURES OF

KIM JONG UN ON MONDAY. THEPICTURES WERE PART OF A

DOCUMENTARY THAT RAN AFTER ACONCERT.

>> AND TO THINK HE GREW UP TOCONDEMN HIS UNCLE TO DEATH.

>> AH YES, WHO WOULD HAVETHOUGHT.

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