May 4, 2011 - David Barton

  • Episode: 16059
  • (0)

The White House hides the Bin Laden photo, and David Barton discusses religion in the Constitution.

>> Jon: WELCOME TO "THE DAILY SHOW." MY NAME IS JON STEWART.

OH, THAT SOUND OF THAT DATE.

YES!

MY NAME IS JON STEWART.

OUR GUEST TONIGHT, DAVID BARTON,

THE CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLAR.

GLENN BECK CALLS HIM THE MOST IMPORTANT MAN IN AMERICA, SO IT IS CLEARLY NOT DAVID BARTON, THE

MAN BEHIND THE CHAIN OF NEW YORK FITNESS CENTERS IN CHELSEA.

ALTHOUGH MAYBE IT IS THE SAME GUY.

[LAUGHTER]

THAT WOULD BE WEIRD.

LET'S BEGIN TONIGHT WITH OUR CONTINUING COVERAGE OF THE DEATH OF THE WORLD'S MOST WANTED

TERRORIST, OBAMA -- DAMMIT.

OH, HOLD ON.

THERE WE GO.

THERE WE GO.

SORRY.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

WHAT?

I MADE A MISTAKE.

OBAMA CAPTURED OSAMA.

IT IS A PHONETICALLY DIFFICULT STORY.

WE ALL DO IT.

I THINK IT'S PART OF OBAMA'S PLAN TO FIX THE DEFICIT.

DUDE'S PLAYING CHESS.

WHERE WAS I?

IT'S BEEN THREE DAYS SINCE WE LEARNED OF OSAMA BIN LADEN'S DEMISE, AND THE NEWS OF HIS

DEATH HAS SENT AMERICA ON HOLIDAY, SPENDING ALL DAY AT HOME IN BED, PINT OF HAAGEN-DAZS

WATCHING "COUNTRY STRONG" OVER AND OVER ON PAY-PER-VIEW.

IT'S... OH.

I'M BEING TOLD WE'RE NOT CELEBRATING.

WE'RE JUST STILL UNEMPLOYED.

OH.

[LAUGHTER]

STILL, GOOD MOVIE, GOOD ICE CREAM.

MY POINT IS WE'VE HAD OUR THREE DAYS.

IT'S TIME THAT WE RETURNED TO A PRE-5 SLS 1 MENTALITY, WHERE ANY

EVENT, NO MATTER HOW MOMENTOUS,

IS QUICKLY GROUND INTO FLAVORLESS, COLORLESS PASTE AND SQUEEZED INTO THE CHIRPING

GULLETS OF OUR PUND-OCRACY.

>> WILL A BIN LADEN BUMP HELP THE PRESIDENT GET REELECTED?

>> WILL THE PRESIDENT GET A BUMP FROM THE BIN LADEN NEWS?

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT WHAT SOME ARE CALLING THIS BIN LADEN BUMP.

>> Jon: THE BIN LADEN BUMP?

YES, YES, AND WOULDN'T IT BE GREATER THAN THE HITLER HIKE.

[LAUGHTER]

OR EVEN THE FAMED POL POT POP.

[LAUGHTER]

AND BY THE WAY, I'M SURE THE BIN LADEN BUMP WILL HELP, BUT WHAT

WOULD OBAMA NEED TO REALLY GOOSE HIS NUMBERS?

>> WE DID AN OVERNIGHT POLL LAST NIGHT.

HE'S AT 56% APPROVAL.

AGAIN, IT'S NOT THE 80-PLUS PERCENT APPROVAL RATING GEORGE W. BUSH HAD AFTER SEPTEMBER

11th, BUT IT'S CLEARLY HELPING THE PRESIDENT AT THE MARGINS.

>> ALL JON: SO IT'S GOOD, BUT IT'S NOT 9/11 GOOD.

[LAUGHTER]

THAT WAS A GREAT TIME TO BE PRESIDENT.

OF ONE THING WE CAN BE SURE,

THOUGH, ANY SUDDEN DRAMATIC SHIFT BASED ON THE ENORMITY OF THIS EVENT WILL BE PERMANENT.

>> WILL THE DEATH OF OSAMA BIN LADEN SEAL THE FATE OF OUR COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF?

>> DID THE ANNOUNCEMENT THAT BIN LADEN IS DID CLINCH PRESIDENT OBAMA'S REELECTION?

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE SAYING PRESIDENT OBAMA HAS SEALED HIS REELECTION IN 2012 WITH THIS ANNOUNCEMENT.

>> Jon: YES, YES, HE SEALED IT.

IT'S OVER.

THAT'S WHY WE HERE AT "THE DAILY SHOW" ARE TAKING THE OPPORTUNITY

TO LAUNCH "INDECISION 2016.

RACE TO THE HOVER HOUSE."

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

BY THE WAY, 2016, THE WHITE HOUSE WILL BE BUILT USING HOVER TECHNOLOGY.

I IMAGINE PRESIDENT-ELECT HILLARY GINGRICH WILL FIND IT TO HER LIKING.

OH, THE FUTURE HOLDS MANY SURPRISES.

[LAUGHTER]

YOU KNOW, FUTURE SURPRISES ALWAYS COME WITH THIS HAND MOVEMENT.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNEW THAT.

WHOO, LIKE I'M PETTING A FURRY SNAKE.

[GIGGLING]

YOU KNOW, THE KEY TO THESE INCREDITBLY ANNOYING ANALYSES IS THE RELUCTANCE WITH WHICH THESE

NEWS PEOPLE DO THEM.

>> I MEAN, I HATED TO GO POLITICAL IMMEDIATELY ON THIS,

BUT DID HE GET A BOUNCE IN HIS APPROVAL RATING?

>> IS IT TOO EARLY TO START ON THIS CONVERSATION?

>> I KNOW IT SOUNDS PREMATURE,

BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE...

>> PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.

I HAD ONE PERSON SAY, WHY ARE YOU ASKING THAT QUESTION?

I HEARD A LOT OF PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT IT.

>> I REALLY DID, TOO.

>>

>> Jon:, YEAH, YEAH, I HEAR A LOT OF THEM TALKING ABOUT IT,

TOO, ALTHOUGH A LOT OF THEM SEEM TO BE WEARING MICROPHONES AND PANCAKE MAKE-UP.

FOR GOD'S SAKE, AMERICA'S NUMBER-ONE ENEMY IS DEAD.

THIS ISN'T A TIME TO ASK WHAT IT MEANS FOR OUR POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

IT'S A TIME TO ASK, IS IT GOOD FOR OUR BUSINESS LEADERSHIP.

>> HOW DOES THE DEATH OF OSAMA BIN LADEN IMPACT THE BUSINESS LANDSCAPE TODAY?

>> HOW WILL BIN LADEN'S DEATH AFFECT THE BROADER MARKETS MOVING FORWARD?

>> WE'LL HIGHLIGHT THREE DEFENSE-RELATED STOCKS POISED TO DO WELL IN THE POST-BIN LADEN ERA.

>> EVEN THOUGH BIN LADEN DIDN'T PERSONALLY PHYSICALLY HOLD GOLD

HIMSELF, GOLD AS A SAFE HAVEN MIGHT CATCH A...

[LAUGHTER]

>> Jon: I GOT A QUESTION: HOW IS LEAD DOING?

WORD IS BIN LADEN IS PHYSICALLY HOLDING SOME OF THAT.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

YOU KNOW WHAT, MAYBE I'M BEING A LITTLE HARD ON THE NEWS MEDIA.

YOU KNOW WHAT, THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO ASK PEOPLE, YOU KNOW WHAT,

THEIR OPINIONS ARE.

>> OUR NEW CNN POLL SHOWS 61% OF AMERICANS BELIEVE THE AL QAEDA LEADER IS IN HELL RIGHT NOW.

[LAUGHTER]

>> Jon: SO AM

SHOW.

REMEMBER LAST WEEK THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES RELEASED HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND YOU

THOUGHT, FINALLY WE WILL HAVE A REST PERIOD FOR THOSE CLAMORING TO SEE DOCUMENTATION OF AN EVENT

MOST ARE ALREADY COMFORTABLE OCCURRED.

AND THEN WE KILLED OSAMA BIN LADEN.

[LAUGHTER]

I HOPE YOU ENJOYED YOUR RESPITE.

>> I THINK WE HAVE TO RELEASE THE PHOTOS.

>> THE PHOTOS HAVE TO BE RELEASED.

>> THEY NEED TO RELEASE THESE TWO PHOTOS SIMULTANEOUSLY.

>> I SAY RELEASE THE PHOTO,

MR. PRESIDENT.

>> Jon: WE MUST BECAUSE A PHOTO WILL END THE SPECULATION.

JUST LIKE THE ZAPRUDER FILM PUT A REST TO ALL THAT J.F.K.

BUSINESS.

[LAUGHTER]

PEOPLE SAW THAT AND WENT, I'M SATISFIED.

BUT YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M ALL FOR HEALTHY SCEPTICISM, AND EVEN THOUGH BIN LADEN'S WIDOW

POSITIVELY IDENTIFIED THE BODY TO PAKISTANI AUTHORITIES, WHY WOULDN'T WE RELEASE THE HEAD

SHOT OF BIN LADEN'S HEAD SHOT?

>> PEOPLE WITHIN THE ADMINISTRATION WHO HAVE SEEN THE IMAGES DESCRIBE THEM AS

GRUESOME, AS YOU MIGHT EXPECT.

>> I'VE HAD IT DESCRIBED TO ME,

AND IT DOES SOUND VERY GRUESOME.

>> THE PICTURE IS VERY GORY.

HE HAS A GAPING WOUND ABOVE HIS LEFT EYE.

THERE'S BLOOD.

THERE'S BRAIN TISSUE.

>> Jon: UH-HUH.

TOO GORY?

TOO GORY?

HAVE YOU MET US?

[LAUGHTER]

FROM 8:00 P.M. ON, EVERY SHOW ON TELEVISION WE WATCH BEGINS WITH AN INTERNAL TRACKING SHOT OF A

GAPING WOUND ABOVE SOMEONE'S LEFT EYE PULLING OUT ONLY TO REVEAL HALF A HOOKER IN A

DUMPSTER DISCOVERED BY A CHILD ON A BICYCLE.

YOU KNOW WHAT WE CALL IT?

"PRIME TIME." YOU KNOW WHAT, LET US HELP WITH THE AUTOPSY.

[APPLAUSE]

LET US HELP WITH THE AUTOPSY.

SHOW US THE PICTURE.

WE WON'T BE DISGUSTED.

YOU'RE MORE LIKELY TO HEAR FROM US.

YOU COULD TELL FROM THE SUBCUTANEOUS HEMORRHAGING THAT THE SHOT WAS FIRED.

THE EXIT WOUND SUGGESTS AN AR-19 ASSAULT RIFLE.

I LEARNED THAT ON "BONES." THAT'S RIGHT.

LOOKS LIKE THE LEADER OF AL QAEDA IS AL QAEDEAD.

[LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE]

OH, OH, DAVID CARUSO, IS THERE NOTHING YOUR SUNGLASSES CAN'T FIX?

[LAUGHTER]

COME ON, MAN, WE CAN TAKE THE GORE.

ANY OTHER REASON WE CAN'T SEE THE PICTURES?

>> IT'S TRICKY BECAUSE YOU CAN INFLAME PEOPLE.

>> WILL THE RELEASE OF WIN BIN LADEN'S PROOF OF DEATH PHOTOS

PROVOKE A RETALIATORY ATTACK.

>> IF YOU PUT IT OUT THERE, IT MAY INFLAME THE MUSLIM WORLD.

>> Jon: THE EXTREMISTS OVER THERE ALREADY HATE US, AND I

DON'T KNOW IF YOU KNOW, THIS THE MUSLIM WORLD SEES PRETTY GRAPHIC IMAGES OF PEOPLE WE KILL ON

PURPOSE OR ACCIDENTALLY ALL THE TIME.

JARRING, HUH?

SOMETIMES THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE TO SEE IT ON TV, JUST OUT THE WINDOW.

YOU KNOW, THE TRAGIC COLLATERAL DAMAGE OF WAR IS THE SUBJECT OF AL-JAZEERA'S ENTIRE 6:00 A.M.

SHOW "MOURNING JOE."

[LAUGHTER]

BUT I WILL SAY THIS TO THE WHITE HOUSE, EVEN IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO RELEASE THE IMAGE TO THE

PUBLIC, THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO QUELL ANY "HE'S NOT DEAD" RUMORS.

INVITE A BUNCH OF JOURNALISTS TO VIEW THE PICTURES IN PRIVATE.

WHILE YOU'RE AT IT, TURN IT INTO A HAWPGHTSED HOUSE.

LET REPORTERS FEEL OSAMA'S BRAINS AND EYEBALLS.

OH, MAN, ARE THOSE JELLYBEANS OR... PERSONALLY THE BEST REASON IN MY MIND FOR RELEASING THE

PICTURES IS WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING THIS WAR FOR NEARLY TEN YEARS.

THOUSANDS OF U.S. DEATHS, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF IRAQIS AND AFGHANIS HAVE DIED, AND WE'VE

SEEN NEARLY ZERO PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE OF IT.

REMEMBER HOW LONG THE MEDIA HAD TO FIGHT TO SHOW MILITARY COFFINS RETURNING FROM OVERSEAS?

YOU PROBABLY DON'T REMEMBER BECAUSE YOU SAW PICTURES OF IT THE DAY THEY WON THE CASE AND

NOT SINCE.

MAYBE WE SHOULD ALWAYS SHOW PICTURES -- BIN LADEN, WOUNDED SERVICE PEOPLE, MAIMED, INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

WE CAN ONLY MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WAR IF WE SEE WHAT WAR ACTUALLY IS AND NOT AS A VIDEO GAME WHERE

BODIES QUICKLY DISAPPEAR,

LEAVING BEHIND A SHINY, GOLD COIN.

WHICH FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND IS GOING UP.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

BY THE WAY, THE WHITE HOUSE ANNOUNCED TODAY IT OFFICIALLY DECIDED TO NOT RELEASE THE BIN

LADEN PHOTO.

INSTEAD TO KEEP IT A SECRET THEY'RE GOING TO AIR DROP IT INTO AN AFTER FLIEWNTS

>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.

MY GUEST TONIGHT, AN AMERICAN

HISTORIAN AND THE FOUNDER AND

PRESIDENT OF WALLBUILDERS, DAVID

BARTON.

SIR, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

SIT.

[APPLAUSE]

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> Jon: SO HERE'S WHAT

HAPPENED, SO WE HAVE MIKE

HUCKABEE ON THE SHOW.

>> RIGHT.

GOOD GUY.

>> Jon: VERY NICE GUY, GOOD

FRIEND OF THE SHOW.

WE ALWAYS HAVE REALLY

INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS.

SO I'M WATCHING HIM PRAISE YOU.

HE WAS AT A CONFERENCE.

>> RIGHT.

>> Jon: HE SAID DAVID BARTON

IS THE GREATEST HISTORIAN IN

AMERICA AND ALL CHILDREN SHOULD

HAVE TO LEARN FROM HIM IN THEIR

CURRICULUM.

I'M PARAPHRASING.

>> RIGHT.

>> Jon: AND I THOUGHT TO

MYSELF, WELL, GEEZ, I'D LIKE THE

MEET THE GREATEST HISTORIAN IN

AMERICA.

THEN I STARTED LOOKING UP YOUR

STUFF, AND I THOUGHT, OKAY...

>> THAT'S A DANGEROUS THING TO

DO.

>> Jon: THIS SEEMS ODD.

SO I ASKED MIKE HUCKABEE ABOUT

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE

BEEN SAYING, AND HE SAID, WHY

DON'T YOU ASK DAVID BARTON

HIMSELF.

AND I SAID, OKAY.

AND HERE I AM.

SO HERE YOU ARE.

SO LET ME ASK YOU, JUST FOR OUR

AUDIENCE THAT IS NOT FAMILIAR

WITH WHAT YOU DORK HOW WOULD YOU

DESCRIBE WHAT IT IS YOU DO?

>> I'D SAY HISTORICAL

RECLAMATION.

WE AND OUR COMPANY HAVE ABOUT

100,000 DOCUMENTS FROM BEFORE

1812.

SO DOCUMENTS OUT OF BLACK

HISTORY, OUT OF RELIGIOUS

HISTORY, CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORY,

YOU NAME IT.

WE'VE GOT 100,000 ORIGINALS.

THAT'S WHAT WE TAKE A LOT OF

HISTORY BACK TO, THOSE ORIGINAL

THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

>> Jon: BUT IT ALWAYS SEEMS

THE HISTORY YOU TAKE COMES BACK

TO THE IDEA THAT WE ARE A MORE

CHRISTIAN NATION THAN WE ARE

LIVING.

IS THAT...

>> THAT'S NOT ACCURATE.

THERE'S PEOPLE WHO POINT THAT

OUT, BUT I'LL GIVE YOU A GOOD

EXAMPLE.

IN TEXAS I WAS APPOINTED AS AN

EXPERT TO DO HISTORY IN

GOVERNMENT STANDARDS THERE.

>> Jon: SO YOU ARE A

CURRICULUM AUTHORITY?

>> FOR ABOUT 20 YEARS,

CALIFORNIA, TEXAS, ALL THESE

STATEDS, I DO THEIR HISTORY AND

SOCIAL STUDIES STANDARDS.

SO I'M ASKED BY THE GOUGH OR BY

THE STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION TO

DO THAT.

>> AND THIS MAY BE A

MISCONCEPTION, BUT YOU DON'T...

YOU ARE NOT A HISTORIAN IN TERMS

OF ACADEMIC HISTORIAN.

YOU DON'T HAVE A DOCTORATE.

>> NO.

I'VE GOT ALL THE DOCUMENTS.

THAT'S WHAT'S BEEN A LOT OF FUN

BECAUSE I WENT THROUGH HISTORY

AND SCHOOL AND WHAT I GOT TAUGHT

AND WHAT I SEE IN THE ACTUAL

DOCUMENTS AREN'T THE SAME THING.

THAT'S WHAT GOT ME STARTED.

SOME REALLY OLD DOCUMENTS CONTRA

DINGTED MY SCHOOL BOOKS.

SO WE SAY PUBLISHERS, HERE'S

WHAT THE ACTUAL DOCUMENTS ARE,

PRINT THE DOCUMENTS.

GO BACK TO THE ORIGINALS.

ON THE ISSUE OF RELIGION, BEING

ONE OF THE GUYS APPOINTED IN

TEXAS, ALL MY REVIEWS ARE

ONLINE.

THERE'S 43,000 WORDS ONLINE OF

MY REVIEWS OVER THE LAST SET OF

STANDARDS.

ONLY TWO SUBJECTS DO I EVER

MENTION CHRISTIANITY.

ONE WAS THE TEACHER'S

RECOMMENDED TAKING THE STUDY OF

CHRISTMAS OUT OF THE HOLIDAY.

>> YOU ARE SAYING YOU ARE NOT

INTERESTED IN...

>> OH, I AM.

I AM.

>> Jon: OKAY.

>> AS AN EMPHASIS.

>> Jon: THAT'S YOUR ALMOST

TOTAL EMPHASIS.

>> NO, IT'S NOT.

>> Jon: OH.

>> I KNOW THE KIND OF PEOPLE

THAT GO AFTER ME.

AND WHEN I WAS ON THE TEXAS

BOARD, THERE'S A GROUP THAT DID

A PRESS RELEASE AND ALL OF A

SUDDEN MSNBC AND THE "TIMES,"

ALL THESE GROUPS...

>> BARTON IS CRAMMING

CHRISTIANITY DOWN THEIR THROATS

IN TEXAS.

NO, THERE'S 43,000 WORDS, TWO

REFERENCES TO CHRISTIANITY.

THAT'S NOT A SUPER BIG EMPHASIS,

NOT THAT THAT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO

ME, BUT WHAT I TEACH...

>> I WOULD SAY IN LEVITICUS,

BEING DAY IS MENTIONED TWICE,

BUT PEOPLE ON THE RIGHT KIND OF

MAKE A BIG EMPHASIS OUT OF THAT.

>> THAT'S NOT A HISTORY ISSUE.

>> Jon:, NO BUT I'M SAYING I

DON'T KNOW THAT...

>> LETS ME GIVE YOU ANOTHER WAY

OF LOOKING AT IT.

>> Jon: PLEASE.

>> PUBLISHERS COME TO ME AND SAY

YOU HAVE TO WRITE THE STANDARDS.

AND I WHAWNS MY NAME EVOKES, SO

I TOLD THE PUBLISHERS, I'LL BE

THE EDITOR, BUT DON'T PUT MY

NAME IN THE NEXT BOOK.

THAT TEXTBOOK I EDITED IS THE

BESTSELLING PUBLISHED SCHOOL

TEXTBOOK MANY AMERICA.

HISTORIANS THINK IT'S A GREAT

BOOK.

THEY DON'T KNOW I DID IT.

>> Jon: WELL, NOT HISTORIANS.

>> TEACHERSEN

>> Jon: WHEN TEXAS MAKES A

BOOK, IT'S NOT A FREE MARKET

THING.

>> IT WAS BECAUSE I WORKED AT

THE PUBLISHERS, NOT THE STANDARD

IN TEXAS.

THE PUBLISHERS CAME TO ME.

>> Jon: MORE PEOPLE ARE BUYING

IT, IT'S CLEARLY BETTER.

>> WELL, YEAH, EXACTLY.

BUT...

>>

SAY ABOUT THAT.

BUT LET'S GET TO YOU BECAUSE I

DO... YOU ARE AN IMPORTANT

FIGURE.

YOU GO IN AND YOU ARGUE IN FRONT

OF THE SUPREME COURT.

YOU GO IN AND YOU WORK WITH OUR

CONGRESS.

YOU WORK WITH CONGRESS PEOPLE.

YOU GO IN AND YOU WRITE

CURRICULUM, AND I CAN'T HELP BUT

THINK THAT, AND IN YOUR

WRITINGS, YOU TALK ABOUT

RECLAIMING OUR FORGOTTEN

HISTORY.

>> RIGHT.

>> Jon: WHEN IT SEEMS TO ME

SOMEONE WHO PROBABLY HAS A VERY

DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE ON THIS

NATION'S HISTORY THAT YOU ARE

REWRITING MORE THAN RECLAIMING.

>> LET ME GIVE A SHOT AT THAT.

ONE THING I'M REALLY PROUD ABOUT

THAT WE GOT DONE IN TEXAS IS WE

TOOK THE NUMBER OF MINORITIES

WHO ARE COVERED IN THE STANDARDS

FROM 9% TO 25%.

THE WAY I DID IT IS SAID WE'RE

NOT COVERING ANY OF THE JEWISH

FOUNDING FATHERS OR THE BLACK

FOUNDING FATHERS, THE WOMEN OF

THE REVOLUTION.

WE'RE ALSO NOT COVERING

HISPANICS IN THE REVOLUTION.

THAT'S FORGOTTEN HISTORY.

I BET YOU MOST JEWISH PEOPLE

CAN'T NAME THE JEWISH FOUNDING

FATHERS.

>> Jon: I CAN.

SANDY KOUFAX.

>> EXACTLY.

[LAUGHTER]

YOU'RE RIGHT.

SANDY KOUFAX.

THAT'S ALL I GOT.

>> EXACTLY.

>> Jon: SO I AM INCORRECT IN

SAYING THAT YOU... I'VE SEEN

TAPES OF YOU SPEAKING WHERE YOU

MAKE POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS

BASED ON THE BIBLE, THINGS LIKE

I WOULD LIKE THE SEE THE CAPITAL

GAINS TAX AND THE ESTATE TAX

GONE BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS SO.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT THOSE ARE ALSO SPEECHES

GIVEN TO GROUPS OF MINISTERS,

AND I'M SPEAKING TO MINISTERS.

THAT'S NOT A TEXTBOOK.

THAT'S A WHOLE DIFFERENT

SETTING.

FOR EXAMPLE...

>> Jon: YOU'RE SAYING THERE IS

A WALL OF SEPARATION?

>> THERE IS.

AND THAT IS... YOU GOT TO

UNDERSTAND WHERE THAT CAME FROM,

TOO.

>> Jon: A WALL OF SEPARATION

WITHIN YOU OF CHURCH AND STATE?

>> NO, NO, ANY MORE THAN THE

FOUNDERS WANTED IT.

THEY WANTED SEPARATION OF THE

INSTITUTIONS, NEVER SEPARATION

OF THE INFLUENCE.

NEVER AT ANY POINT DID THEY

SAY...

>> THAT'S WHERE THE RUBBER MEETS

THE ROAD HERE BECAUSE THAT'S

KIND OF WHAT I'M GETTING TO.

AS MUCH AS YOU MIGHT PROTEST

THAT YOUR MAIN THRUST IS NOT TO

GET US BACK TO THIS IDEA THAT

THE FOUNDERS DIDN'T WANT

RELIGION SEPARATED FROM THE

STATE, THE DOCUMENTS THAT YOU

PULL, GOING OFF THE

CONSTITUTION, IT DOESN'T MENTION

THE CREATOR.

IT DOESN'T MENTION JESUS.

IT DOESN'T MENTION PRAYING IN

ANY WAY.

SO WOULDN'T THEY BE EXPLICIT IN

THE MENTION OF RELIGION IF THEY

HAD WANTED IT SO BECAUSE THEY

WERE NOT COY PEOPLE FOR THE MOST

PART.

>> THEY WERE NOT COY.

THEY WERE VERY BLUNT.

WHEN YOU READ THE FEDERALIST

PAPERS, THEY SAID RELIGION

BELONGS TO THE STATE.

YOU READ THE STATE

CONSTITUTIONS, THEY'RE EXTREMELY

GRAPHIC ON RELIGION, BUT THERE

ARE SEVEN REFERENCES IN THE

CONSTITUTION TO RELIGION,

WHETHER IT BE ARTICLE 7.

AND BY THE WAY, THE DECLARATION

IS INCORPORATED INTO THE

CONSTITUTION, SO THERE'S FOUR

REFERENCES TO GODS IN ARTICLE 7.

>> Jon: REFERENCES TO GOD ARE

VERY DIFFERENT THAN EXPLICIT...

THEY WERE SO EXPLICIT THAT IF

YOU WANT TO HOLD THIS OFFICE,

YOU HAVE TO BE THIS AGE.

BLACK PEOPLE COUNTED FOR

THREE-FIFTHS.

THEY USED FRACTIONS.

>> THAT'S ONLY FEDERAL OFFICE.

THAT'S NOT RELIGION.

>> Jon: BUT THEY DIDN'T EVEN

SAY... THERE IS AN OATH OF

OFFICE FOR THE PRESIDENT IS

TRANSCRIBED WORD FOR WORD IN THE

CONSTITUTION.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Jon: BUT THEY DON'T SAY YOU

HAVE TO DO IT ON A BIBLE, AND

THEY DON'T MENTION GOD.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BUT THE STATE LAWS IN ALL 13

STATES REQUIRED EVERY OATH TO BE

DONE ON A BIBLE AND MENTION GOD.

>> Jon: BUT ONLY THREE OF THEM

WERE STILL THERE.

THAT LITMUS TEST WAS ONLY THERE

WHEN THE BILL OF RIGHTS CAME

INTO EFFECTED, ONLY THREE STATES

STILL HAD THOSE LAWS AND THE

FOUNDERS HAD BEEN TRYING THE

PHASE THAT OUT.

>> LET'S TAKE THE RELIGION SIDE.

THE FIRST AMENDMENT SAYS

"CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW

RESPECTING AND ESTABLISHMENT OF

RELIGION."

ONE CASE IN THE U.S. SUPREME

COURT WAS RABBILESSLY GUTTERMAN

WAS ASKED IF PROVIDENCE, RHODE

ISLAND TO, GIVE A PRAYER AT A

GRADUATION, AND HE WASN'T

ALLOWED TO.

NOW, TELL ME HOW CONGRESS SHALL

MAKE NO LAW MEANS THAT A RABBI

CAN'T SAY THE WORD "GOD" AT A

PRAYERMENT THAT'S A PRETTY

STRANGE PARSING OF THE

CONSTITUTION.

AND THAT'S WHAT I ARGUE IS

CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW AS A

RESTRICTION ON CONGRESS.

IT'S NOT A RESTRICTION ON THE

RIGHTS OF PEOPLE TO SAY THE WORD

"GOD" IN PUBLIC.

>> Jon: DO WE HAVE TO GO?

DAMMIT.

CAN WE GO AND THEN COME BACK?

DO YOU MIND STICKING AROUND?

>> HAPPY TO.

>> Jon: THIS IS THE KIND OF

CONVERSATION THAT I DON'T GET.

SO I'M GOING TO

THAT'S OUR SHOW.

JOIN US TOMORROW NIGHT AT 11:00.

I JUST RAN MARATHON.

[LAUGHTER]

IN ALL DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

[LAUGHTER]

AND ENDED UP EXACTLY WHERE I STARTED.

HERE IT, IS YOUR MOMENT OF ZEN.

>> ARE YOU GESTURING TO ME?

WHY?

WHAT?

WHAT HAPPENED?

I HAD HAIR HANGING OFF MY LIP?

>> [INAUDIBLE]

>> PIECE OF WHAT?

>> [INAUDIBLE]

>> I DON'T CARE ABOUT THAT.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OSAMA BIN LADEN'S DEAD.

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