April 30, 2014 - Martin Gilens & Benjamin Page

  • Episode: 19097
  • (0)

Controversies hit several government agencies, Rep. Michael Grimm faces fraud charges, and Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page take an empirical look at politics and corruption.

>> Jon: WELCOME TO "THE DAILYSHOW".

MY NAME IS JON STEWART.

WE GOT A GOOD ONE FOR YOU

TONIGHT. TONIGHT'S GUESTS, OHYOU'RE GOING TO ENJOY THIS.

MARTIN GILENs AND BENJAMIN PAGETHEY ARE THE

AUTHORS OF A NEW ACADEMIC STUDYTESTING THEORIES OF AMERICAN

POLITICS, ELITES, INTERESTGROUPS AND AVERAGE CITIZENS.

IF YOU READ BUT ONEEMPIRICALLY BASED,

POST-SURVEY QUANTITIVEMULTIVARIED ANALYSIS OF --

[LAUGHTER]YOU SHOULD, AH (bleep) IT, LET'S

JUST TALK ABOUT NET NEUTRALITY.

[ LAUGHTER ]BUT FIRST, THOSE OF US WHO WHILE

WATCHING CONGRESS CONTINUE TO BEUNABLE TO BRING EVEN AN INCREASE

IN THE MINIMUM WAGE TO A FLOATSTILL BELIEVE IN GOVERNMENT'S

ABILITY TO EARN PEOPLE'S TRUST.

THIS NEXT SEGMENT, PROBABLY NOTFOR YOU.

[LAUGHTER]A PERFORMANCE REVIEW WE CALL

U.S. GOVERNMENT, YOU MUST CHECKYOURSELF VIS A VIS YOUR ETHICAL

OR OTHERWISE COMPETENCY-BASEDPERFORMANCE ISSUES

PURSUANT TO THE REQUISITEFEDERAL BYLAWS AND

POPULAR INTERESTS, ORIT BECOMES ENTIRELY

POSSIBLE THAT YOU MAY WRECKYOURSELF.

BEFORE THEY BEGIN THE REVIEW LETME JUST GET OUT MY CLIPBOARD AND

MY (bleep) PENCIL.

[ LAUGHTER ][LAUGHTER]

[LAUGHTER](bleep).

ALL RIGHT.

LET'S BEGIN.

IT'S REALLY JUST A PROP.

WE'LL BEGIN WITH THE INTERNALREVENUE SERVICE.

IRS IF YOU ARE NASTY.

FIRST, SOME GOOD NEWS.

REMEMBER WHEN WE SUSPECTED THEIRS OF UNFAIRLY TARGETING

CONSERVATIVE GROUPS.

TURNS OUT THEY WERE ALSOTARGETING PROGRESSIVE GROUPS, SO

OOPS.

KEEP UP THE TARGETING. ALTHOUGH,

THERE'S ONE AREA WHERE THE IRSMIGHT WANT TO IMPROVE.

>> A REPORTED 1% OF THE IRS WORKFORCE OWES BACK TAXES TO THE

IRS.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> Jon: IT'S LIKE RAIN ON YOUR

WEDDING -- IT'S A FREE RIDE WHENYOU ON -- DON'T LIKE RIDES.

[ LAUGHTER ]BY THE WAY YOU WERE SAYING, THE

PEOPLE AT THE PAY US YOUR TAXESPLACE DON'T PAY THEIR TAXES.

>> IT'S QUITE LOW WHEN YOUCONSIDER THAT 8% OF THE GENERAL

PUBLIC OWES BACK TAXES TO THEFEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

>> Jon: AH YES, BUT IT'S QUITE

HIGH WHEN YOU TAKE INTO ACCOUNTIT'S THE IRS.

IT'S LIKE SAYING WELL ONLY 1% OFTHE WORKERS AT THE CENTERS FOR

DISEASE CONTROL ARE SPREADINGDISEASE.

[ LAUGHTER ]MOST OF THEM ARE NOT OPENING

VIALS OF SMALL POX ON CROWDEDSUBWAYS AT ALL.

I GUESS THE ONLY WAY TO FIX THISPROBLEM IS TO HIRE ANOTHER IRS

PERHAPS TO POLICE THEM.

AN IIRS.

PERHAPS WE NEED AN IIIRS AND ANIVRS.

[ LAUGHTER ]PRETTY SOON WE'RE ALL JUST PART

OF A NESTING DOLL OF OVERSIGHT,PARANOIA AND SUSPICIOUS, EACH OF

US INVESTIGATING THE NEXT TOINFINITY UNTIL IT TURNS OUTWE'VE

REALLY JUST BEEN INVESTIGATINGOURSELVES THE WHOLE TIME.

♪ [LAUGHTER]

AND MAYBE THEN WE REALIZE RIGHTAND WRONG ARE JUST TWO SIDES OF

THE SAME COIN WE CALL THEUNIVERSE OR DID I JUST BLOW YOURMIND?

[LAUGHTER]YEAH, PROBABLY NOT.

YOU KNOW, CAN I ALWAYS DO THAT,BY THE WAY.

[ LAUGHTER ]ALWAYS A CAMERA WITH A

PSYCHEDELIC BACKGROUND.

LET'S MOVE ON TO THE SOCIALSECURITY ADMINISTRATION WHERE

THE IRS HAS BEEN SOMEWHAT LAX,SOCIAL SECURITY HAS BEEN IF

ANYTHING A LITTLE TOO VIGILANT.

>> SOME TAXPAYERS ALREADYGETTING QUITE A SURPRISE,

MONEY TAKEN OUT OF

THEIR TAX REFUNDS TO PAY DEBTSTHEIR PARENTS OWED.

>> Jon: OH, LIKE RAISING ME TOBE AFRAID TO LOVE WASN'T

PUNISHMENT ENOUGH.

[LAUGHTER]>> Jon: NOW THE GOVERNMENT IS

GOING TO COME AND TAKE MY CARAND I LOVE THAT CAR IN AN

UNCOMPLICATED WAY.

NOW, SOCIAL SECURITY I KNOW YOUARE GOING TO SAY HEY,

THAT WASN'T US. COME ON,PROBABLY SOME OTHER MASSIVE

PUBLIC WELFARE PROGRAM FUNDEDTHROUGH PAYROLL TAXES.

WE HAVE WITNESSES.

>> TWO MONTHS AGO MARY GRICE WASNOTIFIED THAT THE U.S. TREASURY

HAD CONFISCATED HER TAX REFUNDS,STATE AND FEDERAL TOTALING

$4500. THE CLAIMAGAINST HER CAME FROM

THE SOCIAL SECURITYADMINISTRATION WHICH SAID IT

OVERPAID DEATH BENEFITS TOMARY'S FAMILY

AFTER HER FATHER SCOTT GRICEDIED IN 1960.

MARY WAS FIVE YEARS OLD.

>> Jon: OH.

HOW DID FIVE-YEAR-OLD MARY ANDHER GRIEVING MOTHER NOT CATCH

THAT CLERICAL ERROR?

[LAUGHTER]HUNT HER DOWN 50 YEARS LATER AND

MAKE HER PAY.

[ LAUGHTER ]NOW TO BE FAIR THE SOCIAL

SECURITY ADMINISTRATION, THREEDAYS AFTER THE MARY GRICE STORY

BROKE DID EVENTUALLYCHECK THEMSELVES.

>> THE SOCIAL SECURITYADMINISTRATION IS HALTING A

PROGRAM UNDER WHICH THOUSANDS OFPEOPLE HAD THEIR TAX REFUNDS

SEIZED TO PAY OFF OLD DEBTS.

>> Jon: YES, YES NOTHINGBRINGS ABOUT THE RAISING OF

CONSCIOUSNESS LIKE PEOPLEFINDING OUT ABOUT (bleep) YOU

ARE DOING.

[ LAUGHTER ]WHICH BRINGS US TO THE

DEPARTMENT OF VETERAN AFFAIRS.

BACKLOG TROUBLES AT THE NATIONALOFFICE ARE WELL KNOWN.

BUT DON'T THINK LOCAL OFFICESCAN'T COMPETE BAD-WISE.

AS MANY AS 40 VETERANS AT THEPHOENIX V.A. MAY HAVE DIED

WAITING FOR MEDICAL TREATMENT.

>> MANAGERS WERE ACTUALLYKEEPING TWO WAITING LISTS.

>> THERE WAS AN UNOFFICIALWAITING LISTS AND VETERANS'

NAMES COULD BE ON IT MONTHS OREVEN YEARS BEFORE THEY WERE

MOVED TO THE OFFICIALAPPOINTMENT LIST.

THE PURPOSE OF THE TWO LISTS WASTO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE THE V.A.

WAS SEEING PATIENTS IN A TIMELYMANNER [AUDIENCE BOOS]

>> Jon: THAT'S NOT GOING TO DOIT.

THESE ARE THE SCREAMING JARS IHAVE FOR DIFFERENT OCCASIONS.

THERE'S ONE HERE FOR WHEN THEMETS LOSE.

IF SPRINGSTEEN IS EVERDECONSTRUCTED, PEOPLE WHO EAT

PIZZA WITH A FORK.

DONALD TRUMP.

HOLD ON A SECOND.

LET ME SEE WHAT I HAVE.

I KNOW MY -- WHERE IS MYVETERANS ADMINISTRATION.

OH, THAT'S RIGHT, I FORGOT.

[ LAUGHTER ][SCREAMING BLEEP BLEEP]

[ APPLAUSE ][LAUGHTER]

>> Jon: YOU KNOW IN A STATIONLIKE THIS YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME

ACCOUNTABILITY.

WHO IS GOING STEP UP TO THEPLATE HERE?

>> IN AN INTERVIEW THISAFTERNOON THE HEAD OF PHOENIX

V.A. DENIED KNOWING ANYTHINGABOUT ALL THIS.

>> Jon: OH, OK. WELL, CASECLOSED.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE. THIS ISJUST ONE OF THOSE COINCIDENCES.

IS THERE ANYTHINGELSE YOU NEED TO TELL US?

>> CNN HAS OBTAINEDE-MAILS SHOWING TOP MANAGEMENT

INCLUDING PHOENIXV.A. DIRECTOR SHARON

HELMAN KNEW ABOUT THE ACTUALWAIT TIMES, KNEW

ABOUT THE OFF THE BOOKS LIST ANDDEFENDED ITS USE TO HER STAFF.

>> Jon: I'M GOING TO NEED ABIGGER (bleep) JAR.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE][CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

>>WELCOME BACK.

YOU KNOW, EVERY PART OF AMERICAHAS ITS OWN UNIQUE STRENGTHS.

THE MIDWEST SMALL TOWN CHARM,GOOD DOWN HOME PEOPLE.

THE SOUTHWEST HAS --[LAUGHTER]

-- DRY HEAT AND LET'S GO WITHTHE HANTAVIRUS.

FLORIDA HAS A LOT OF ROADS THATLEAD OUT OF FLORIDA.

[LAUGHTER]BUT HERE IN THE NORTHEAST OUR

STRENGTH, OUR PRIDE, OURSIGNATURE DISH, IF YOU WILL,

IS OUR INDISPUTABLE LEAD INCRIME AND CORRUPTION.

NO ONE, NO ONE DOES CORRUPTIONBETTER THAN THE NORTHEAST, BABY.

FROM BOSS TWEED, TO WHITEYBULGER TO NEW JERSEY'S CLASSIC

SYNAGOGUE MONEY LAUNDERINGSLASH HUMAN ORGAN TRAFFICKING

FAD OF 2009. WE'VE HAD SERPICO,ABSCAM. I THINK THE MAYOR OF

PROVIDENCE MIGHT HAVE ASSAULTEDA GUY WITH A FIREPLACE LOG.

EVEN CONNECTICUT, LET'S BEHONEST NOBODY ELSE IN THE REGION

LIKES OR RESPECTS, EVENCONNECTICUT OCCASIONALLY JAILS

ITS GOVERNORS ON CORRUPTIONCHARGES JUST TO KEEP

UP WITH THE NEIGHBORS. AND THISWEEK WE NOR'EASTERS GOT

OURSELVES ANOTHER GOLD STARON THE WRAP SHEET.

>> CONGRESSMAN MICHAEL GRIMMARRESTED EARLIER TODAY.

HE'S BEEN TAKEN TO FBIHEADQUARTERS HERE IN

NEW YORK CITY. HE FACESCORRUPTION CHARGES.

>> Jon: GRIMM.

[ LAUGHTER ]WHY DOES THAT NAME SOUND SO

FAMILIAR?

>> YOU MIGHT REMEMBER GRIMMFROM EARLIER THIS YEAR WHEN HE

THREATENED TO THROW A TELEVISIONREPORTER OVER A BALCONY.

>> Jon: OH, RIGHT.

[ LAUGHTER ]ONE OF GREATEST SENTENCES EVER

UTTERED ON -- YOU MIGHT REMEMBERTHAT GUY WHO TRIED TO THROUGH A

NY1 REPORTER OVER A BALCONY.

>> LET ME BE CLEAR TOYOU. YOU EVER DO THAT TO

ME AGAIN, I'LL THROW YOUOVER THIS (bleep) BALCONY.

I'LL BREAK YOU IN HALF. LIKE ABOY.

[LAUGHTER]>> Jon: I NEVER GOT THAT.

I NEVER GOT THAT WHOLE EXCHANGE.

HOW DO YOU NOT CLOSE WITH I'MGOING TO THROW YOU OFF THIS

(bleep) BALCONY?

THAT IS YOUR END LINE.

I'M GOING TO THROW YOU OFF THIS(bleep) BALCONY AND I'M GOING

TO BREAK YOU IN HALF LIKE A BOY.-- YOU ALREADY THREW HIM OFF A

(bleep) BALCONY.

BREVITY IS THE SOUL OFTHREAT, MY FRIEND.

[ LAUGHTER ]WHAT DID THE FEDS CHARGE BALCONY

BOY WITH?

>> OBSTRUCTING AND IMPEDING IRSFUNCTIONS, CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD

THE UNITED STATES,CAUSING FALSE TAX RETURNS TO

BE FILED, MAIL FRAUD, WIREFRAUD,

HEALTH CARE FRAUD,PERJURY, OBSTRUCTION OF AN

OFFICIAL PROCEEDING, AND THEHIRING OF UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS.

>> Jon: YOU KNOW WHAT, I'M IN ABIT OF A HURRY HERE.

WHY DON'T YOU JUST NAME ALL THE(bleep) HE DIDN'T DO.

THIS IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.

THIS IS CLASSIC, CLASSICNORTHEASTERN CORRUPTION.

I'M TELLING YOU.

YOU HAVE YOUR HOT HEADED PUBLICOFFICIAL.

MASSIVE BUST BY THE FEDS.

ALL THAT IS MISSING IS SHADYBACKROOM DEALINGS IN A DANK

RESTAURANT.

>> THESE CHARGES STEM FROMMICHAEL GRIMM'S ROLE IN MANAGING

THE RESTAURANT HE OWNED ANDOPERATED.

>> Jon: BOOM!

WAIT, LET ME SET THE SCENE.

I CAN PICTURE IT NOW. IT'SA CLASSY ITALIAN JOINT.

WHERE A MOZZARELLASO CREAMY IT'S LIKE BUTTER.

WITH A GABAGOOL TO DIE FOR.THEY'VE GOT MEATBALLS, A GLASS

OF (bleep) BAROLO AND A BIGPLATE OF --

>> IT'S ON THE UPPER EAST SIDEON THE MANHATTAN IT'S A HEALTH

FOOD RESTAURANT AS YOU CAN SEECALLED HEALTHALICIOUS.

[LAUGHTER]>> Jon: I'M SORRY

HEALTHALICIOUS.

YOU DON'T EVEN CALL ITHEALTH-ILISH?

YOU'RE DOING THIS AT A HEALTHFOOD JOINT?

>> HEALTHALICIOUS WAS A SMALLBUSINESS AND THEY SOLD CASUAL

FOOD SO MANY PEOPLE USED CASH.

AND IT WAS THIS CASH THATMICHAEL GRIMM EXPLOITED.

MAKING OVER $1 MILLION SIMPLYDISAPPEAR.

>> Jon: IS THIS WHATNORTHEASTERN CORRUPTION HAS COME

TO?

CLOSING BRIDGE LANES ANDSKIMMING A LITTLE OFF THE TOP OF

A BROCCOLI AND LENTIL JOINT?

ALL RIGHT.

IF THAT'S HOW THE GAME IS PLAYEDTHESE DAYS I BRING YOU A SCENE I

CALL GLUTEN FELLAS.

♪ I THINK THAT'S THE WRONG MUSIC.

[ LAUGHTER ]ALL RIGHT.

HERE WE GO.

>> LOOK, IF IT ISN'T TOMMY.

I'M SURPRISED YOU ARE NOT INYOUR PAJAMAS EATING CEREAL.

>> MAYBE YOU HAVEN'T HEARD,BILLY, I DON'T EAT GLUTEN NOMORE.

>> YEAH ME, TOO, CLOGS ME UP.

>> YEAH YOU GOTTA TAKE CARE OFYOURSELF GET YOUR OMEGAS.

>> YEAH I'M ALL ABOUT THE GOODFATS.

NOW GO HOME AND GET YOUR MOTHER(bleep) CHEERIOS BOX.

KEEP THEM HERE (bleep)(bleep).

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]>> Jon: YOU WONDER WHY I DON'T

ACT IN VERY MANY MOVIES.

[LAUGHTER]I CAN'T EVEN GET THE (bleep)

PUPPETS ON MY FINGERS.

[ LAUGHTER ]ALL RIGHT.

WHAT ARE WITH TALKING ABOUTHERE?

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

THAT'S RIGHT, GRIMM SHADY.

ALL RIGHT. HE MAYBE SCARED OF HIGH

CHOLESTEROL BUT HE IS NOTSCARED OF THE LAW.

>> I WILL GET RIGHT BACK TO WORKAS I ALWAYS HAVE.

WITH HONOR AND DISTINCTION IWILL SERVE AND THEN ON TOP OF

ALL THAT, I HAVE AN ELECTION TOWIN.

[ LAUGHTER ]>> Jon: HOW CAN I LEAVE WHEN

THERE'S SO MUCH MORE TO DO?

SO MANY MORE RESTAURANTS I WOULDLIKE TO OPEN LIKE A SALAD BAR

CALLED KALE TO THE CHIEF.

OR MAYBE FOR ASIAN FOOD, MISOHEALTHY.

[ LAUGHTER ]WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE][CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]

>> Jon: WELCOME BACK.MY GUESTS TONIGHT,

THEY HAVE COAUTHORED A PAPERTITLED

"TESTING THEORIES OF AMERICANPOLITICS: ELITES, INTEREST

GROUPS, AND AVERAGE CITIZENS".IT WILL APPEAR IN THE FALL

EDITION OF ACADEMIC JOURNAL.IT'S REALLY THE BEST EDITION,

THE SWIMSUIT EDITION, ACTUALLY,THE PERSPECTIVE ON POLITICS.

PLEASE WELCOME MARTINGILENS AND BENJAMIN PAGE.

COME ON OUT. HOW ARE YOU, SIR?

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]NICE TO SEE YOU. COME AND SIT.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]>> THANK YOU.

>> PLEASURE.

>> Jon: THE PEOPLE LOVE AQUANTITIVE ANALYSIS.

[ LAUGHTER ]TALK TO US VERY BRIEFLY BECAUSE

THIS PAPER TRIESTO STATISTICALLY QUANTIFY

THAT FEELING THAT EVERYONE HASTHAT

ACCESS AND POWER AND INFLUENCEDISPROPORTIONATELY GO TO ELITES.

SO, IS THAT WHAT THE ATTEMPT WASHERE TO DO, TO STATISTICALLY

QUANTIFY THAT IN ANYWAY?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

>> Jon: OK, THAT'S GOOD. THAT'SALL THE TIME WE HAVE.

ALL RIGHT.

[LAUGHTER]HOW DID YOU TRY DO THAT?

>> MARTIN SPENT TEN YEARS DOINGIT.

>> Jon: YOU SPENTTEN YEARS DOING IT?

>> I DID.

>> Jon: WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?

>> I AM A LAST MINUTEADDITION, HONESTLY.

>> Jon: OH, IS THAT REALLY TRUE.BUT DID YOU WRITE THE PAPERTOGETHER OR?

>> WE WROTE IT TOGETHER.

IT WAS BEN'S IDEA.

AND IT WAS BEN'S IDEA THAT THEREWOULD BE ENOUGH INTEREST IN THE

COUNTRY THAT WE SHOULD PUT OUT APRESS RELEASE AND SEE IF THE

MEDIA CARED ABOUT IT.

>> Jon: THAT'S A SMART THING.

YOU COME UP WITH THE IDEA ANDYOU SAY TO THIS GENTLEMAN, WHY

DON'T YOU WORK ON THAT FOR TENYEARS?

>> YOU GOT IT. YOU GOT IT.

>> Jon: IN THIS ANALYSIS,IF YOU WILL, I'M OBVIOUSLYNOT A

STATISTICIAN, I'M NOT ANECONOMIST, I WOULD SAY YOU

REPRESENT THE ELITES. AND YOUHAVE HAD YOUR ASS

QUANTITATIVELY HANDED TO YOU.

>> NO, NO, NO. IT GOT ME ON YOURSHOW, JON.

AND, TEN YEARS WAS WORTH IT.

>> Jon: YOU'RE ABSOLUTELYRIGHT. AND I'M DELIGHTED.

HOW DO YOU QUANTIFY SOMETHINGLIKE THAT?

WHAT METRICS DO YOU USE?

>> WE LOOKED AT A COUPLETHOUSAND POTENTIAL POLICY

CHANGES IN THE UNITED STATESOVER TWENTY FIVE YEARS, AND

WE MEASURED WHAT ORDINARYCITIZENS WANTED WHETHER THEY

FAVORED OR OPPOSED THEM AND WHATELITES, ECONOMIC ELITES, WANTED,

AND WHERE INTEREST GROUPS FELL.AND BY HAVING MEASURES OF ALL

THOSE THINGS WE COULD PUT THEMINTO A STATISTICAL MODEL THAT

WOULD TO ASSESS THE INFLUENCE OFEACH OF THOSE SETS OF ACTORS.

>> Jon: RIGHT, LET ME ASK YOU,THOUGH. WHEN YOU HAVE

SOMETHING HERE IN THIS CASE. THEBIVARIATE REGRESSION YOU'RE

USING, YOU HAVE .18DIFFERENTIAL AND A

.22 DIFFERENTIAL OF THE INTERESTGROUPS AND THE OTHER. NOW,

WHEN YOU USE THOSE ASINDEPENDENT VARIABLES THEY

DIFFER DRAMATICALLY BUT IF YOUARE GOING TO TRY TO STRONGLY

RELATE THOSE BIVARIATECORRELATIONS BECAUSE THEY ARE SO

CLOSE, DOESN'T THAT SUGGEST YOUHAVE A MULTICOLA -- LINEARITY

PROBLEM.

>> OH, MY GOD. YOU THINK SO? ITCOULD BE!

>> Jon: LET ME TELL YOUSOMETHING. I DON'T KNOW WHAT IJUST SAID.

I GUESS THE QUESTION IS: DO THEELITES, IS THE VARIABLE ENOUGH

FROM WHAT THE NON-ELITE PUBLICWANTS TO WHAT THE ELITES WANT?

DID YOU FIND A LARGE SPREADBETWEEN THEIR AIMS?

>> YES, YEAH.

THERE'S SOME VERY IMPORTANTISSUES INCLUDING SOCIAL SECURITY

DEFICITS, ECONOMIC REGULATIONS,TAXES.

>> Jon: ARE YOU ABLE TOCALCULATE HOW MUCH OF A

DIFFERENCE MONEY MAKES OR HOWMUCH OF A DIFFERENCE, YOU

KNOW -- CAN YOU LOOK ATDIFFERENT INTEREST GROUPS AND

SEE -- ALMOST CALCULATE WHATTHEIR EFFECT IS?

LIKE WHO IS THE MOST EFFECTIVEPRIVATE LOBBY GROUP?

WHAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVEMONEY?

>> WITH OUR DATA NOT REALLY.

WE LOOKED AT LOBBYISTS, WELOOKED AT INTEREST GROUPS AS A

WHOLE.

WE WERE ABLE TO DISTINGUISHMASS BASED GROUPS LIKE AFL-CIO

OR THE AARP FROMBUSINESS GROUPS.

BUT BEYOND THAT WE CAN'T REALLYSAY.

>> Jon: RIGHT, NOW, WHY WOULDTHOSE BE DIFFERENT?

IF MONEY IS MONEY, WHY WOULDAFL-CIO BE DIFFERENT FROM A

BUSINESS GROUP?

>> IT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

AND IT TURNS OUT THEY ARE NOTTHAT DIFFERENT. WHAT

THE DIFFERENCE COMES FROM ISTHERE'S A LOT MORE BUSINESS

GROUPS.

>> Jon: OH, LABOR ISUNDERREPRESENTED IN TERMS OF,

AND THAT WOULD REFLECTIN TERMS OF POLICY.

>> EXACTLY.

>> Jon: OK, ARE THERE INTERESTGROUPS THAT ARE REALLY WASTING

THEIR MONEY? LIKE CAN YOU

LOOK AT A CERTAIN GROUP ANDSAY WOW CLUB FOR GROWTH IS

GETTING BANG FOR THEIR BUCK BUTTHE PHARMACEUTICAL INDUSTRY IS

INEFFICIENT AND BEING RIPPED OFFBY THEIR LOBBYISTS.

>> IT WOULD BE NICE TO KNOW BUTWE CAN'T TELL.

>> Jon: YOU CAN'T TELL.

>> CAN'T TELL.

>> Jon: I GUESS WHAT I'M GOINGFOR IS --

[LAUGHTER]-- I WANT TO GET A LOBBYIST

FANTASY LEAGUE GOING WHERE WECAN GET THE STATISTICS AND TRADE

THEM LIKE MONEY BALL, LIKESABERMETRICS BUT FOR LOBBYISTS

BECAUSE THEN WE COULDTRACK IT STATISTICALLY AND

HAVE A MUCH CLEARER VISION OFWHO WE'RE UP AGAINST.

[LAUGHTER]HERE IS WHAT I JUST REALIZED: I

AM FAILING THIS CLASS.

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT THEDIFFERENTIAL THEN?

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

>> I THINK THAT'S IMPORTANT. YOUKNOW,

KRUGMAN WROTE A COLUMN AND HESAID THIS STUDY IS OKAY BUT IT'S

GOING TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE ANDTHAT'S BAD.

AND, I THINK THERE'S SOMETHINGTO THAT.

THIS IS A SOLVABLE PROBLEM.

I THINK IT TAKES A VERY BIGSOCIAL MOVEMENT.

I THINK IT TAKES BIPARTISANLEADERSHIP AND IT ACTUALLY

TAKES WEALTHY PEOPLE ON THE SAMESIDE TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

NOTHING SEEMS TO HAPPEN INAMERICAN POLITICS OF ANY

IMPORTANCE FOR --

>> Jon: RIGHT, I WAS GOING TOSAY, DO YOU KNOW OF A COUNTRY

WHERE THAT COULDHAPPEN? IS THERE ANYTHING --

>> WELL, THE UNITED STATES ATTHE BEGINNING OF THE 20th

CENTURY, THE PROGRESSIVE PERIOD.I THINK IT'S REALLY WORTH

LOOKING BACK TO THAT ANDLEARNING SOME LESSONS.

>> Jon: STICK AROUND FOR ALITTLE BIT AFTER THE BREAK AND

WE'LL TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUTWHAT THE MECHANICS OF THAT

WOULD LOOK LIKE TO SOME EXTENTOR HOW TOP QUANTIFY THAT

TO SOME EXTENT.YOU CAN BUY ALSO,

MARTIN YOU HAVE A BOOK OUT,RIGHT?

>> I DO INDEED.

>> Jon: IN FACT, I JUSTHAPPEN TO HAVE IT RIGHT

HERE. IT'S CALLED AFFLUENCE ANDINFLUENCE.

IT WAS THIS GUY'SIDEA. AND THEN THIS GUY

SPENT 20 YEARS WRITING ITAND I DON'T KNOW WHO IS GETTING

THE ROYALTIES, PROBABLY ME.

IT'S ON THE BOOKSHELVES NOW.

MARTIN GILEN SAND BENJAMIN PAGE.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

[CHEERS AND APPLAUSE]>> Jon: THAT'S OUR SHOW.

HERE IT IS YOUR MOMENT OF ZEN.

>> 18 INCREASES IN THE MINIMUMWAGE SINCE 1956.

SUPPOSE THE OTHER SIDE HAD TAKENTHAT ATTITUDE. IT WOULD STILL

BE, I GUESS, A BUCK AN HOUR 50CENTS IF YOU WERE KIDS.

TODAY 50 CENT IS A SINGINGGROUP, RIGHT?

AM I RIGHT ABOUT THAT?

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